Comments on: It’s time to expect more from Austin Daye http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/ Your Go-To Source For Pistons Coverage Wed, 22 May 2013 01:59:03 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Patrick Hayes http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/comment-page-1/#comment-24392 Patrick Hayes Wed, 09 Mar 2011 16:46:44 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/#comment-24392 <p>"He is not just a first quarter shooter. he makes them in the fourth guarter when they count."</p> <p>Did baskets start counting for five points in the fourth quarter now?</p> “He is not just a first quarter shooter. he makes them in the fourth guarter when they count.”

Did baskets start counting for five points in the fourth quarter now?

]]> By: detroitpcb http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/comment-page-1/#comment-24386 detroitpcb Wed, 09 Mar 2011 13:22:52 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/#comment-24386 a list of other things Daye does beside shoot: 1) He boxes out almost every play. While he sometimes gets physically manhandled and pushed out of the way, he also gets his share of tough rebounds in traffic. And he will only improve in this area as he gets stronger in his core 2) He passes very well. He makes the swing pass on rotations. He can pass off the dribble. He is excellent at feeding the post. The one thing he does not do well yet is to pass out of the post when double teamed. He is not strong enough and gets overwhelmed and turns the ball over. Otherwise though, he is not turnover prone. 3) he sees the floor very well, has that intangible thing called court awareness. is a very smart player. 4) when not hindered by having to deal with a screen (his biggest weakness is getting around screens) he moves his feet well, positions himself well defensively to help teammates with lane penetration and takes charges. 5) he gets some blocked shots because of his length 6) he hits clutch shots. He is not just a first quarter shooter. he makes them in the fourth guarter when they count. and finally - if he didn't have to play with Will (i never pass the ball when i can drive and get it rejected or turn it over) Bynum, he would be averaging a lot more points this season. Daye rarely gets the ball when he wants it. Even when he does get it, it is usually a second or two late as Bynum consciously decides whether to pass to the open man instead of just seeing the open man and delivering the ball. a list of other things Daye does beside shoot:

1) He boxes out almost every play. While he sometimes gets physically manhandled and pushed out of the way, he also gets his share of tough rebounds in traffic. And he will only improve in this area as he gets stronger in his core

2) He passes very well. He makes the swing pass on rotations. He can pass off the dribble. He is excellent at feeding the post. The one thing he does not do well yet is to pass out of the post when double teamed. He is not strong enough and gets overwhelmed and turns the ball over. Otherwise though, he is not turnover prone.

3) he sees the floor very well, has that intangible thing called court awareness. is a very smart player.

4) when not hindered by having to deal with a screen (his biggest weakness is getting around screens) he moves his feet well, positions himself well defensively to help teammates with lane penetration and takes charges.

5) he gets some blocked shots because of his length

6) he hits clutch shots. He is not just a first quarter shooter. he makes them in the fourth guarter when they count.

and finally – if he didn’t have to play with Will (i never pass the ball when i can drive and get it rejected or turn it over) Bynum, he would be averaging a lot more points this season. Daye rarely gets the ball when he wants it. Even when he does get it, it is usually a second or two late as Bynum consciously decides whether to pass to the open man instead of just seeing the open man and delivering the ball.

]]> By: brgulker http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/comment-page-1/#comment-24361 brgulker Tue, 08 Mar 2011 22:16:50 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/#comment-24361 I think this is all very solid analysis, Dan. Purely personal opinion here, but I'm skeptical that Daye will become a 20ppg guy at any point in his career. I think mid teens is much more likely, approximating what Tay has done throughout his career. I also don't think this is a bad thing. We've had Tay playing very solid ball for a long time. To find another similar player in the middle of the first round would be excellent. But, he's not there yet. I think this is all very solid analysis, Dan.
Purely personal opinion here, but I’m skeptical that Daye will become a 20ppg guy at any point in his career. I think mid teens is much more likely, approximating what Tay has done throughout his career.
I also don’t think this is a bad thing. We’ve had Tay playing very solid ball for a long time. To find another similar player in the middle of the first round would be excellent.
But, he’s not there yet.

]]> By: frankie d http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/comment-page-1/#comment-24357 frankie d Tue, 08 Mar 2011 21:48:25 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/#comment-24357 you specifically requested that i note two things that he did above average. obviously, any response i provided would be based on what he has done so far in the pros. i noted gonzaga only because it was consistent with his pistons' experience.  also, as any nba draft observer knows, rebounding is one thing that translates from the college level into the pros.  guys who rebound well in college, typically rebound well in the pros. and if you can use numbers to support your argument, i figured i'd use some of those same numbers you referred to to support what i said. i suppose i could have qualified what i said, by noting that any observation was based on limited information, but i believe i covered myself by specifically talking about the limited examples of his playing in certain positions, eg, SG. and yes, i think it is much easier to note the kind of potential a player may have, when observing him in limited instances, as opposed to concluding based on those same limited examples that a player cannot do certain things. stephen curry could shoot and it would not take watching 10 games to understand that fact.  whether he will continue to be an atrocious defender is something no one can tell just yet.  he may get better, he may continue to be really bad.  only time will tell. likewise, it is easy to see that a 6'11" daye can be an excellent post option against your typical 6'6" shooting guard.  you only need to see him do it a couple of times to understand the possibilities. whether he will ever become a better defender against guards and forwards is something that will take time to determine, imho. you specifically requested that i note two things that he did above average.
obviously, any response i provided would be based on what he has done so far in the pros.
i noted gonzaga only because it was consistent with his pistons’ experience.  also, as any nba draft observer knows, rebounding is one thing that translates from the college level into the pros.  guys who rebound well in college, typically rebound well in the pros.
and if you can use numbers to support your argument, i figured i’d use some of those same numbers you referred to to support what i said.
i suppose i could have qualified what i said, by noting that any observation was based on limited information, but i believe i covered myself by specifically talking about the limited examples of his playing in certain positions, eg, SG.
and yes, i think it is much easier to note the kind of potential a player may have, when observing him in limited instances, as opposed to concluding based on those same limited examples that a player cannot do certain things.
stephen curry could shoot and it would not take watching 10 games to understand that fact.  whether he will continue to be an atrocious defender is something no one can tell just yet.  he may get better, he may continue to be really bad.  only time will tell.
likewise, it is easy to see that a 6’11″ daye can be an excellent post option against your typical 6’6″ shooting guard.  you only need to see him do it a couple of times to understand the possibilities.
whether he will ever become a better defender against guards and forwards is something that will take time to determine, imho.

]]> By: Patrick Hayes http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/comment-page-1/#comment-24351 Patrick Hayes Tue, 08 Mar 2011 20:32:07 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/#comment-24351 <p>So your criticism of Dan's post is that you think there's simply not enough evidence to have any kind of conclusion with Daye because he hasn't played enough, yet you say he's played enough for you to conclusively say he's an "excellent" post-up player and facilitator? And because he was a good rebounder at Gonzaga that mean's he's definitely going to be a good NBA rebounder in an expanded role?</p> So your criticism of Dan’s post is that you think there’s simply not enough evidence to have any kind of conclusion with Daye because he hasn’t played enough, yet you say he’s played enough for you to conclusively say he’s an “excellent” post-up player and facilitator? And because he was a good rebounder at Gonzaga that mean’s he’s definitely going to be a good NBA rebounder in an expanded role?

]]> By: frankie d http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/comment-page-1/#comment-24349 frankie d Tue, 08 Mar 2011 20:10:11 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/#comment-24349 two things daye does very well other than shoot? when he plays the shooting guard spot, he is an awesome post-up option.  with his size and length, he commands a double team, when he posts down low against the typical SG defender, who will usually be 4-6 inches shorter.  when he played the position in summer league and during the preseason, he created all sorts of havoc because teams would typically try to provide defensive help. it has mystified me as to why the pistons abandoned something they had talked about developing, even after watching it work well, when it was tried. and the team could certainly use a consistent post-up option. another skill? he is an excellent ballhandler and facilitator on the offensive end.  for a man almost 7 feet tall, he has extraordinary ballhandling skills and he uses that skill well in half-court sets.  he is able to break his man down, get to a spot on the court where he can  either shoot, or pass, and he has the kind of court vision that allows him to see open men and make a good pass, if the defense collapses on him.  this ability keeps the ball moving, causes the defense to have to move and rotate and ultimately opens up shots for everyone. the only other players who have that talent are tayshaun and mcgrady and to some degree bynum and monroe. he also makes that quick, decisive pass to an open man for an open shot, something few pistons, if any, do well.  unfortunately, most hold onto it too long. mcgrady makes that quick pass.  afflalo used to make it consistently.    tay hardly ever makes that pass as he tends to just hold onto the ball for a couple of beats while he decides what to do.  making that quick pass to an open shooter makes a huge difference in how well a team operates in the half court.  it is a very underrated part of a players game. need another skill? he is an excellent rebounder.  in college, he showed surprising toughness under the boards, for a guy built like a stick.  as a piston, he also shows a willingness to stick his nose in the middle of scrums and rebound.  now, he is not ben wallace by any means, but he is a good rebounder for a forward and he would be an excellent rebounder from the SG position. in fact, if you want to look at the numbers, daye would be the best rebounding SF over 36 minutes, better than tay or mcgrady.   over 36 minutes, tay would average 5 boards, while daye would average 6.4, a pretty significant jump. but, imho, daye is a SG and he would be most effective from that position.  if i ruled the pistons, i'd do several things: -bring in a real point guard -make daye my starting SG -make stuckey the 3rd guard -maybe keep bynum as a 4th guard -get rid of everyone else...rip, gordon and mcgrady. my view is that it is simply impossible to know what kind of player daye would be, given his lack of a role and lack of consistent playing time.  imho, the numbers are irrelevant until he is given a consistent role, with consistent minutes over a number of games, say...half a season.  only then will any of those numbers make any sort of sense. finally, on rodman...i remember rodman's first couple of years well, and despite the fact that he was a very good rebounder and defender, there were plenty of people who questioned whether he should get playing time because he was such a poor offensive performer.  daly stuck to his guns and kept playing him, but doing so was pretty extraordinary because he basically gave the team nothing offensively.  daly deserved plenty of credit for sticking with him, but it was, by no means, something that was universally applauded, even with his extraordinary rebounding and defense.   two things daye does very well other than shoot?
when he plays the shooting guard spot, he is an awesome post-up option.  with his size and length, he commands a double team, when he posts down low against the typical SG defender, who will usually be 4-6 inches shorter.  when he played the position in summer league and during the preseason, he created all sorts of havoc because teams would typically try to provide defensive help.
it has mystified me as to why the pistons abandoned something they had talked about developing, even after watching it work well, when it was tried. and the team could certainly use a consistent post-up option.
another skill?
he is an excellent ballhandler and facilitator on the offensive end.  for a man almost 7 feet tall, he has extraordinary ballhandling skills and he uses that skill well in half-court sets.  he is able to break his man down, get to a spot on the court where he can  either shoot, or pass, and he has the kind of court vision that allows him to see open men and make a good pass, if the defense collapses on him.  this ability keeps the ball moving, causes the defense to have to move and rotate and ultimately opens up shots for everyone.
the only other players who have that talent are tayshaun and mcgrady and to some degree bynum and monroe.
he also makes that quick, decisive pass to an open man for an open shot, something few pistons, if any, do well.  unfortunately, most hold onto it too long.
mcgrady makes that quick pass.  afflalo used to make it consistently.    tay hardly ever makes that pass as he tends to just hold onto the ball for a couple of beats while he decides what to do.  making that quick pass to an open shooter makes a huge difference in how well a team operates in the half court.  it is a very underrated part of a players game.
need another skill?
he is an excellent rebounder.  in college, he showed surprising toughness under the boards, for a guy built like a stick.  as a piston, he also shows a willingness to stick his nose in the middle of scrums and rebound.  now, he is not ben wallace by any means, but he is a good rebounder for a forward and he would be an excellent rebounder from the SG position.
in fact, if you want to look at the numbers, daye would be the best rebounding SF over 36 minutes, better than tay or mcgrady.   over 36 minutes, tay would average 5 boards, while daye would average 6.4, a pretty significant jump.
but, imho, daye is a SG and he would be most effective from that position.  if i ruled the pistons, i’d do several things:
-bring in a real point guard
-make daye my starting SG
-make stuckey the 3rd guard
-maybe keep bynum as a 4th guard
-get rid of everyone else…rip, gordon and mcgrady.
my view is that it is simply impossible to know what kind of player daye would be, given his lack of a role and lack of consistent playing time.  imho, the numbers are irrelevant until he is given a consistent role, with consistent minutes over a number of games, say…half a season.  only then will any of those numbers make any sort of sense.
finally, on rodman…i remember rodman’s first couple of years well, and despite the fact that he was a very good rebounder and defender, there were plenty of people who questioned whether he should get playing time because he was such a poor offensive performer.  daly stuck to his guns and kept playing him, but doing so was pretty extraordinary because he basically gave the team nothing offensively.  daly deserved plenty of credit for sticking with him, but it was, by no means, something that was universally applauded, even with his extraordinary rebounding and defense.
 

]]> By: Hollinger: Austin Daye is an up-and-coming player to watch | DetroitBasketball.net http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/comment-page-1/#comment-24346 Hollinger: Austin Daye is an up-and-coming player to watch | DetroitBasketball.net Tue, 08 Mar 2011 19:49:19 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/#comment-24346 [...] I’m a big fan of Daye. He’s come a long way since his rookie year, but it’s not entirely sure that he’s ready to start next season. For now it would seem that he’s slotted to do just that, although Jonas Jerebko’s return from injury could have something to do with that. For more on Daye’s development, be sure to check out PistonPowered.com’s article It’s time to expect more from Austin Daye. [...] [...] I’m a big fan of Daye. He’s come a long way since his rookie year, but it’s not entirely sure that he’s ready to start next season. For now it would seem that he’s slotted to do just that, although Jonas Jerebko’s return from injury could have something to do with that. For more on Daye’s development, be sure to check out PistonPowered.com’s article It’s time to expect more from Austin Daye. [...]

]]> By: swish22 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/comment-page-1/#comment-24344 swish22 Tue, 08 Mar 2011 19:42:49 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/#comment-24344 I agree he still has tremendous upside but only if he can continue to get stronger physically.  Offensively he seems to make good decisions in general but defensively he takes so many bad fouls and he just can't keep anybody off the glass due his lack of bulk.  He looks like a guy who's committed to getting better though and I'm ready to see him get big minutes to help him mature and toughen up!  I agree he still has tremendous upside but only if he can continue to get stronger physically.  Offensively he seems to make good decisions in general but defensively he takes so many bad fouls and he just can’t keep anybody off the glass due his lack of bulk.  He looks like a guy who’s committed to getting better though and I’m ready to see him get big minutes to help him mature and toughen up! 

]]> By: Patrick Hayes http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/comment-page-1/#comment-24342 Patrick Hayes Tue, 08 Mar 2011 19:21:09 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/#comment-24342 <p>Ugh ... all of those "factors" you list are actually mentioned in Dan's rational analysis.</p> <p>- If you paid attention to any of the statistical content about Afflalo and Johnson when they were here, particularly Matt Watson's numerous posts on Johnson, you would find that many people actually advocated bigger roles for them based on per-minute stats. They were extremely productive in the liminted time they got in Detroit.</p> <p>- Rodman had two elite skills that got him on the court - defense and rebounding. Those two things were abundantly clear to anyone who watched him early on, and the stats backed that up.</p> <p>Now name me two things, other than shoot, that Daye does at an above average level right now? His shooting stroke is awesome. But what else does he do well right now that justifies him getting big minutes?</p> <p>I really think you jump to conclusions that aren't there in this post. What is wrong with saying that Daye needs to be more productive in the minutes he's given? He very clearly does. That's not anyone saying he's a bad player. It's just saying that, for the people projecting he's going to be a 20-22 PPG scorer, he hasn't shown it in the minutes he's been given, and a lot of comparable players had shown it by now at smiliar stages in their careers.</p> Ugh … all of those “factors” you list are actually mentioned in Dan’s rational analysis.

- If you paid attention to any of the statistical content about Afflalo and Johnson when they were here, particularly Matt Watson’s numerous posts on Johnson, you would find that many people actually advocated bigger roles for them based on per-minute stats. They were extremely productive in the liminted time they got in Detroit.

- Rodman had two elite skills that got him on the court – defense and rebounding. Those two things were abundantly clear to anyone who watched him early on, and the stats backed that up.

Now name me two things, other than shoot, that Daye does at an above average level right now? His shooting stroke is awesome. But what else does he do well right now that justifies him getting big minutes?

I really think you jump to conclusions that aren’t there in this post. What is wrong with saying that Daye needs to be more productive in the minutes he’s given? He very clearly does. That’s not anyone saying he’s a bad player. It’s just saying that, for the people projecting he’s going to be a 20-22 PPG scorer, he hasn’t shown it in the minutes he’s been given, and a lot of comparable players had shown it by now at smiliar stages in their careers.

]]> By: Rodman4Life http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/comment-page-1/#comment-24340 Rodman4Life Tue, 08 Mar 2011 19:19:11 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/03/its-time-to-expect-more-from-austin-daye/#comment-24340 He can shoot, he is smart, he has length, he is tall, he seems motivated, he can mismatch, he passes well.  All of these things lead me to believe that he will get more playing time than his defensive deficiencies would normally indicate.  Finally, he is a 10ppg scorer this season after you figure the disarray and confusion Kuester's roster moves have created.  Confidence is so important for a young player and this team's "drama" hasn't helped that at all. With all that being said, I don't really see him ever hitting 20ppg.  I always figured he'd settle into the 15-18 ppg range. He can shoot, he is smart, he has length, he is tall, he seems motivated, he can mismatch, he passes well.  All of these things lead me to believe that he will get more playing time than his defensive deficiencies would normally indicate.  Finally, he is a 10ppg scorer this season after you figure the disarray and confusion Kuester’s roster moves have created.  Confidence is so important for a young player and this team’s “drama” hasn’t helped that at all.
With all that being said, I don’t really see him ever hitting 20ppg.  I always figured he’d settle into the 15-18 ppg range.

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