Comments on: Richard Hamilton-John Kuester blame game attracting attention from another dismal season by Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva

By: Patrick Hayes

Patrick Hayes — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 02:53:53 +0000

@PCB:
I’m not debating whether or not Villanueva is a specialist. It’s very clear that he is, and like I said, his contract is not bad comparatively speaking. My point is that he was not signed to be a specialist. The team very clearly thought he’d be their starting PF and thought he’d be an 18 and 8 or 9ish type player.
Gordon, no disagreements. He just flat out got more open looks in Chicago because he played with guards better at penetrating and kicking.
Daye certainly looks like he’s a potential go-to player next season. Like I’ve said with him in the past, though, I want to see this over an extended stretch before I’m ready to view him as an elite scorer-type player.
And I don’t doubt that Dumars is getting calls. I also don’t doubt he’s had deals that he’d like to do. I just don’t know that he can get ownership approval if there’s no sale.
Think about it from this perspective: The Pistons have to be getting something that is an asset (player, expiring deal or pick). The other team has to feel like they are getting something useful in return and be willing to take on long-term contracts, since most of the Pistons I think the team would want to part with are their long-term signed guys. And on top of those two things, Karen Davidson would have to sign off an not be spending a dime extra this season.
Trades are incredibly hard to pull off and those are a lot of variables in the case of the Pistons. I hope they can do something, but I just don’t think anyone should be shocked if they don’t.

By: detroitpcb

detroitpcb — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 02:05:54 +0000

@Patrick

I cannot imagine that Joe will not make a move at the deadline. I mean, he said he was fielding calls on BG & CV. He had a trade worked out for Rip. The best player on the team is a trade chip with an expiring contract. He has two veterns on minimums that any playoff team could use (Wallace & T-Mac). He has Stuckey and the decision to resign him or not must also be made by the trade deadline although nothing concrete will happen until the new CBA is worked out.

I will bet you my last dollar that Joe makes a move at the deadline. I mean, there are only two players on that team that should be untouchable and that is Daye & Monroe.

By: detroitpcb

detroitpcb — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 01:54:18 +0000

Ben Gordon is never going to be a teram’s primary option. He is too small and has too much trouble getting his shot.

Austins daye is a far better player to slot in as a primary scoring option next season when (if) tay leaves the team as a free agent.

Cv is not being paid like a franchise player – he is being paid like a sixth man and while i too would like to see more rebounds from him, as a scoring specialist off the bench he is worth the value. Meanwhile Ben Gordon is grossly overpaid and needs to be traded as soon as possible or he is going to be another Rip – the contract that you cannot get rid of.

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Wed, 26 Jan 2011 01:51:57 +0000

[...] Richard Hamilton-John Kuester blame game attracting attention from … [...]

By: Satchel Page

Satchel Page — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 00:09:21 +0000

Begs an article:
Since there is little-to-no market for Rip, what’s the trade market for BG, CV (and Max)? How close could we get to moving them for expiring contracts and a Petro or two? Or could we even get a non-redundant player in return? Wouldn’t that be a big hit with management regardless of whether Gores makes the buy?

By: Patrick Hayes

Patrick Hayes — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 20:34:40 +0000

@bg8:
I don’t buy it. It’s not a matter of opportunity. These guys are not rookie players. They are established veterans. The reason their minutes fluctuate is because their production fluctuates wildly.
Gordon, over his 107 games in Detroit, is shooting 8 percent worse from 3-point range than he did in Chicago. That’s significant decline, it’s not just a matter of, “Well, he just needs more shots.” He’s a flawed player who struggles to create his own shot. In Chicago, that worked b/c they had guys who helped get him the ball in good position to score. He was great in that role for the Bulls.
But Detroit paid him to be a guy who not only can get his own offense, but who scores consistently and efficiently. I don’t see how anyone can argue he’s held up his end of the bargain. The bottom line is he hasn’t improved the way the Pistons hoped he would.
As for Villanueva, I didn’t expect him to be a double-double guy necessarily. But I also didn’t expect his rebound rate to decline by like five percent. That’s a significant dropoff for a guy who was a below average rebounder for a big guy in the first place.
Villanueva has been pretty consistent on offense this season, but he has simply not improved overall in Detroit.
Both guys have been starters this year. Both guys have repeatedly insinuated they want to start. Both guys have performed poorly as starters. There’s just only so much “the coach doesn’t use them right” defenses I can take. Obviously Kuester is a flawed coach, obviously this is a flawed rotation. But Gordon and Villanueva have far underperformed here.

By: Patrick Hayes

Patrick Hayes — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 20:26:40 +0000

@nuetes:
“If nothing happens he’s just gotta go.”
There’s still a good bet nothing happens. I mean, the team has still not been sold, and they’re running out of time before the trade deadline.

By: Patrick Hayes

Patrick Hayes — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 20:24:41 +0000

@brgulker:
I don’t hope Dumars gets fired. I hope he takes an honest look at the guys he’s invested in, realizes they won’t win with this group and makes good trades, as he has in the past (Nazr Mohammed, Mateen Cleaves, Rodney White, Corliss, etc.) that yield either expiring contracts or picks.
Dumars has had gambles pay off before. I mean, Billups was a pretty unrpoven player when he signed as was Ben Wallace. Dumars suspected they were hungry to improve, and he was right. I think he suspected Gordon and CV were hungry to improve, and they proved him wrong.
I know you’re an advanced stats guy, but I don’t think it’s realistic to expect that Dumars (or most GMs) use them all that much. I think per-minute stats are about as advanced as Joe D gets, and he clearly signed those two based on per-minute projections.
He’s found good values in free agency before — Billups, Wallace, McDyess, McGrady, hell even Bynum.
Look around at NBA GMs. They get rid of Dumars, is there any guarantee that who they hire will actually be an upgrade?

By: Patrick Hayes

Patrick Hayes — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 20:19:47 +0000

@Jeremy:
I don’t have a problem with either guy personally. They both seem like great teammates. I just don’t think the Pistons can improve with both of them occupying a significant chunk of their cap space and young players due for raises that will further limit financial flexibility.

By: bg8

bg8 — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:33:21 +0000

if they are given more and consistent minutes, more shots, allowed to actually get into a rhythm throughout the whole season, they’ll easily produced at the numbers they had before the signing. problem is, they may get huge minutes one game, then get barely 20min the next game cause they had like a bad 5 minute stretch. they just aren’t given any leeway for a bad stretch, they are like expected to play perfect and never have any bad stretches at all, which is pretty ridiculous. they were just never given a chance to succeed in the pistons. even when gordon was starting, he was given less minute than when he came off the bench, how fair is that?

is cv a 10reb guy, hell no, but he could easily get 7-8reb a game if given more minutes. bg is easily a 20pt/gm guy if given his usual minutes.