Comments on: Ben Gordon, Ben Wallace missing from Detroit Pistons’ crunch time lineup in close loss to Utah Jazz http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/01/ben-gordon-ben-wallace-missing-from-detroit-pistons-crunch-time-lineup-in-close-loss-to-utah-jazz/ Your Go-To Source For Pistons Coverage Wed, 19 Jun 2013 01:53:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Laser http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/01/ben-gordon-ben-wallace-missing-from-detroit-pistons-crunch-time-lineup-in-close-loss-to-utah-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-16375 Laser Wed, 05 Jan 2011 06:58:29 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=4164#comment-16375 "have," not "of." would <strong>have</strong>. “have,” not “of.” would have.

]]> By: gmehl1977 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/01/ben-gordon-ben-wallace-missing-from-detroit-pistons-crunch-time-lineup-in-close-loss-to-utah-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-16360 gmehl1977 Tue, 04 Jan 2011 23:02:34 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=4164#comment-16360 <strong>brgulker</strong> has brought up exactly what i was thinking. It would of been great to of won the game yesterday but the big picture was that the young guys were in there in crunch time and that has way more value than a team that is going no where this year. Yeah i would of woke up feeling good this morning that we beat a pretty good NBA team but heck i still woke up this morning feeling good that those young guys were in there learning and getting there confidence up. I am not also convinced that all the vets could do much better than the young guys anyway. I am not condoning losing by any means but am more afraid that if we play our vets too much trying to win at all cost (where 11-23 btw) it will stunt the growth of our young guys which will lead to more losing next year and the year after that. So if that means young guys play in crunch time now and we lose because of it then so be it. Winning games at any cost (by playing the vets) will just be a 2 steps forward 3 steps back method. The pistons for way too long have stunted the growth of there young guys and need to realize that while you need them to work and earn their minutes you need to reward them with minutes too.   God must hate the pistons because if we had of lost 1 more game last year we would of been working with a line up that more than likely would of included DeMarcus Cousins instead of trying to sell the farm to trade for him. Still i am glad that they didn't sell out and lose on purpose cause that just isn't the right way to play! brgulker has brought up exactly what i was thinking. It would of been great to of won the game yesterday but the big picture was that the young guys were in there in crunch time and that has way more value than a team that is going no where this year. Yeah i would of woke up feeling good this morning that we beat a pretty good NBA team but heck i still woke up this morning feeling good that those young guys were in there learning and getting there confidence up. I am not also convinced that all the vets could do much better than the young guys anyway. I am not condoning losing by any means but am more afraid that if we play our vets too much trying to win at all cost (where 11-23 btw) it will stunt the growth of our young guys which will lead to more losing next year and the year after that. So if that means young guys play in crunch time now and we lose because of it then so be it. Winning games at any cost (by playing the vets) will just be a 2 steps forward 3 steps back method. The pistons for way too long have stunted the growth of there young guys and need to realize that while you need them to work and earn their minutes you need to reward them with minutes too.
 
God must hate the pistons because if we had of lost 1 more game last year we would of been working with a line up that more than likely would of included DeMarcus Cousins instead of trying to sell the farm to trade for him. Still i am glad that they didn’t sell out and lose on purpose cause that just isn’t the right way to play!

]]> By: The Point Forward » Posts Court Vision: The latest around the league « http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/01/ben-gordon-ben-wallace-missing-from-detroit-pistons-crunch-time-lineup-in-close-loss-to-utah-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-16351 The Point Forward » Posts Court Vision: The latest around the league « Tue, 04 Jan 2011 20:33:40 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=4164#comment-16351 [...] Patrick Hayes at Piston Powered says Raja Bell had his toe on the three-point line when he canned a triple that broke a tie with 50 seconds left in Utah’s win over Detroit on [...] [...] Patrick Hayes at Piston Powered says Raja Bell had his toe on the three-point line when he canned a triple that broke a tie with 50 seconds left in Utah’s win over Detroit on [...]

]]> By: Laser http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/01/ben-gordon-ben-wallace-missing-from-detroit-pistons-crunch-time-lineup-in-close-loss-to-utah-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-16344 Laser Tue, 04 Jan 2011 17:09:45 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=4164#comment-16344 @hayes: +1 essentially.   i mean, you can put out an <strong>average</strong> defensive unit with, say: stuckey, rip, tayshaun, max and big ben, but that unit has proven its uselessness, and your subs at every position would be a downgrade. still, you gotta defend a little. you can't just throw your hands in the air and expect to win games by hitting shots... especially with so little in the way of playmaking and post play.   however, i agree with the vinces that t-mac just can't guard hardly any point guards (a highly important position to impede if you can), and as long as he's in the game at his current level of mobility, i'm going to cross-match defensively. but as long as you have ben gordon on the roster, this won't be a problem; they'll usually cross-match defensively anyways so he doesn't have to guard a guy twice his size. so the real litmus test should be if he can check shooting guards. and as long as your small forward can guard shooting guards, that won't be a problem either, since t-mac is big enough to guard the three. so it'll be a cross-match fest when t-mac is in the game, but well worth it for the brilliant playmaking. @hayes: +1 essentially.
 
i mean, you can put out an average defensive unit with, say: stuckey, rip, tayshaun, max and big ben, but that unit has proven its uselessness, and your subs at every position would be a downgrade. still, you gotta defend a little. you can’t just throw your hands in the air and expect to win games by hitting shots… especially with so little in the way of playmaking and post play.
 
however, i agree with the vinces that t-mac just can’t guard hardly any point guards (a highly important position to impede if you can), and as long as he’s in the game at his current level of mobility, i’m going to cross-match defensively. but as long as you have ben gordon on the roster, this won’t be a problem; they’ll usually cross-match defensively anyways so he doesn’t have to guard a guy twice his size. so the real litmus test should be if he can check shooting guards. and as long as your small forward can guard shooting guards, that won’t be a problem either, since t-mac is big enough to guard the three. so it’ll be a cross-match fest when t-mac is in the game, but well worth it for the brilliant playmaking.

]]> By: Patrick Hayes http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/01/ben-gordon-ben-wallace-missing-from-detroit-pistons-crunch-time-lineup-in-close-loss-to-utah-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-16343 Patrick Hayes Tue, 04 Jan 2011 16:44:43 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=4164#comment-16343 @brgulker: OK, Ben Wallace isn't part of the team's future, but is Kuester? Not if he keeps losing games. My arguments are not so much based on what I want to happen as a fan. As a fan, I want to see Monroe and Daye get big minutes so they can either develop or the team can figure out if they're good. But as someone covering the team? I'm just trying to evaluate them by their own standards. That standard, by everything everyone from Dumars to Kuester to the players has publicly said, is winning. I have no reason to believe that Kuester is being evaluated by how well he develops Daye/Monroe even at the expense of letting close games slip away. If the stated goal is to win games and try to make the playoffs, and I've heard no other goal mentioned by Dumars, Kuester's lineup decisions were a clear failure last night. You don't win games by playing overmatched young players when you have better alternatives available, and Wallace and Gordon were clearly better alternatives if the goal was to win that game. Like I said, from a personal standpoint, I'm fine with how it played out. I have no interest in seeing Miami sweep Detroit in the first round by double digits in each game. But from the team's perspective, playoffs = revenue, so I understand why they'd want to make it. And until Dumars says "I don't care if we lose as long as Daye and Monroe are getting better" I'm going to continue evaluating the team in large part from a wins/losses perspective. If the goal is to win and decisions are made that make a loss more likely, then yeah, it's fair game to write about that, even if I don't ultimately hate the fact that the young guys are playing. @brgulker:
OK, Ben Wallace isn’t part of the team’s future, but is Kuester? Not if he keeps losing games.
My arguments are not so much based on what I want to happen as a fan. As a fan, I want to see Monroe and Daye get big minutes so they can either develop or the team can figure out if they’re good.
But as someone covering the team? I’m just trying to evaluate them by their own standards. That standard, by everything everyone from Dumars to Kuester to the players has publicly said, is winning. I have no reason to believe that Kuester is being evaluated by how well he develops Daye/Monroe even at the expense of letting close games slip away.
If the stated goal is to win games and try to make the playoffs, and I’ve heard no other goal mentioned by Dumars, Kuester’s lineup decisions were a clear failure last night. You don’t win games by playing overmatched young players when you have better alternatives available, and Wallace and Gordon were clearly better alternatives if the goal was to win that game.
Like I said, from a personal standpoint, I’m fine with how it played out. I have no interest in seeing Miami sweep Detroit in the first round by double digits in each game.
But from the team’s perspective, playoffs = revenue, so I understand why they’d want to make it. And until Dumars says “I don’t care if we lose as long as Daye and Monroe are getting better” I’m going to continue evaluating the team in large part from a wins/losses perspective. If the goal is to win and decisions are made that make a loss more likely, then yeah, it’s fair game to write about that, even if I don’t ultimately hate the fact that the young guys are playing.

]]> By: brgulker http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/01/ben-gordon-ben-wallace-missing-from-detroit-pistons-crunch-time-lineup-in-close-loss-to-utah-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-16342 brgulker Tue, 04 Jan 2011 16:10:01 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=4164#comment-16342 Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.   If Kuester doesn't find important minutes for Daye and Monroe, the Pistons media damns. If Kuester plays Daye and Monroe in important situations, and they make mistakes like young players do, the media damns him.   I don't fault Q for playing Monroe and sitting Ben Wallace. Ben Wallace isn't the future big man of this franchise. Monroe might be, and he's gotta learn. At the end of the day, this game didn't matter, and neither will the outcome of the rest of the games this season. What matters is whether or not we can develop a group of players that can become the next "core."   And as much as I love Ben Wallace, he's not part of it. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t.
 
If Kuester doesn’t find important minutes for Daye and Monroe, the Pistons media damns. If Kuester plays Daye and Monroe in important situations, and they make mistakes like young players do, the media damns him.
 
I don’t fault Q for playing Monroe and sitting Ben Wallace. Ben Wallace isn’t the future big man of this franchise. Monroe might be, and he’s gotta learn. At the end of the day, this game didn’t matter, and neither will the outcome of the rest of the games this season. What matters is whether or not we can develop a group of players that can become the next “core.”
 
And as much as I love Ben Wallace, he’s not part of it.

]]> By: vic http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/01/ben-gordon-ben-wallace-missing-from-detroit-pistons-crunch-time-lineup-in-close-loss-to-utah-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-16341 vic Tue, 04 Jan 2011 14:14:02 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=4164#comment-16341 another bad decision was the decision to bench TMac for the 1st half of the 4th quarter, and put Stuckey in. TMac was dominating the game and was just about ready to turn on his offense and finish out his triple double, then Kue puts in Stuckey, and our momentum stops. They've got to have a better awareness of who's hot. another bad decision was the decision to bench TMac for the 1st half of the 4th quarter, and put Stuckey in.

TMac was dominating the game and was just about ready to turn on his offense and finish out his triple double, then Kue puts in Stuckey, and our momentum stops.

They’ve got to have a better awareness of who’s hot.

]]> By: Patrick Hayes http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/01/ben-gordon-ben-wallace-missing-from-detroit-pistons-crunch-time-lineup-in-close-loss-to-utah-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-16340 Patrick Hayes Tue, 04 Jan 2011 14:11:41 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=4164#comment-16340 @Laser: Who wonders why you can't root for this team? If they don't know why by now, I guess they will never know. As for the whole "defending opposing PGs" argument made by Ellis/Goodwill, that makes no sense. I think Stuckey is an adequate defender when he wants to be. But when they start three other guys who are below average defenders (Gordon, Prince, V) and a center in Wallace who is an OK post defender still but doesn't protect the rim much anymore, what the hell does it matter if your point guard defends OK? The Pistons will never ever win games by playing great defense. If they win at all, it will be because their shooters are on and their offense is flowing. It makes no sense not to start the guy who runs their offense very clearly better than anyone else on the team. For a guy allegedly being judged on his ability to win games, Kuester just makes baffling decisions. I don't understand how anyone, particularly beat writers who watch this team more than and closer than anyone else, can think that defense is in any way relevant when there is not a single guy on the roster who anyone would mistake for a defensive stopper. @Laser:
Who wonders why you can’t root for this team? If they don’t know why by now, I guess they will never know.
As for the whole “defending opposing PGs” argument made by Ellis/Goodwill, that makes no sense. I think Stuckey is an adequate defender when he wants to be. But when they start three other guys who are below average defenders (Gordon, Prince, V) and a center in Wallace who is an OK post defender still but doesn’t protect the rim much anymore, what the hell does it matter if your point guard defends OK?
The Pistons will never ever win games by playing great defense. If they win at all, it will be because their shooters are on and their offense is flowing. It makes no sense not to start the guy who runs their offense very clearly better than anyone else on the team.
For a guy allegedly being judged on his ability to win games, Kuester just makes baffling decisions. I don’t understand how anyone, particularly beat writers who watch this team more than and closer than anyone else, can think that defense is in any way relevant when there is not a single guy on the roster who anyone would mistake for a defensive stopper.

]]> By: Patrick Hayes http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/01/ben-gordon-ben-wallace-missing-from-detroit-pistons-crunch-time-lineup-in-close-loss-to-utah-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-16338 Patrick Hayes Tue, 04 Jan 2011 13:59:12 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=4164#comment-16338 @jk281: "Good teams are using the Pistons to get their seasons back on track just like they used to do with the Lions in the NFL" Wow. Never thought I'd see the day when the Pistons were compared to the Lions and there was really nothing I could do to argue the point. @jk281:
“Good teams are using the Pistons to get their seasons back on track just like they used to do with the Lions in the NFL”
Wow. Never thought I’d see the day when the Pistons were compared to the Lions and there was really nothing I could do to argue the point.

]]> By: Patrick Hayes http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/01/ben-gordon-ben-wallace-missing-from-detroit-pistons-crunch-time-lineup-in-close-loss-to-utah-jazz/comment-page-1/#comment-16337 Patrick Hayes Tue, 04 Jan 2011 13:55:17 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/?p=4164#comment-16337 @jack: In fairness, most people around the league who don't follow the Pistons don't realize how well McGrady has played. Remember, McGrady looked really bad the only times he was on the court the last couple years. We see him on a game-to-game basis and see how he's improved really each week since he's been in Detroit. They just look at his stats, which still don't really stand out overall, and assume he's not playing well. It'll take some time for the rest of the league to realize, but if he keeps doing what he did against Utah, the rest of the league will understand that he can still play. @jack:
In fairness, most people around the league who don’t follow the Pistons don’t realize how well McGrady has played. Remember, McGrady looked really bad the only times he was on the court the last couple years.
We see him on a game-to-game basis and see how he’s improved really each week since he’s been in Detroit. They just look at his stats, which still don’t really stand out overall, and assume he’s not playing well. It’ll take some time for the rest of the league to realize, but if he keeps doing what he did against Utah, the rest of the league will understand that he can still play.

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