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Chad Ford: Charlotte might make a decent trading partner with the Pistons

From his latest chat, ESPN’s Chad Ford had this response to a question about Rip Hamilton:

Pistons have been close on a few things with Rip, almost landed Tyson Chandler this summer … but he’s not helping himself right now. I think Charlotte is one of the few teams out there with genuine interest.

Sean from Life on Dumars already tackled a possible Charlotte/Detroit swap with a cap-relieving suggestion of Hamilton and Jason Maxiell for Boris Diaw and DeSagana Diop. That’s a nice, practical trade that certainly gives the Pistons some flexibility.

But I like to be impractical, and I would desperately love to see Gerald Wallace as a member of the Pistons.

Trade

Pistons receive:

  • Gerald Wallace
  • DeSagana Diop
  • Matt Carroll
  • Shaun Livingston

Bobcats receive:

Salaries

Data from ShamSports.com

Pistons receive:

Player 2010/11 2011/12 2012/13 2013/14 2014/15
Gerald Wallace $10,500,000 $10,500,000 $10,500,000 $0 $0
DeSagana Diop $6,478,600 $6,925,400 $7,372,200 $0 $0
Matt Carroll $4,300,000 $3,900,000 $3,500,000 $0 $0
Shaun Livingston $3,500,000 $3,500,000 $3,500,000 $0 $0
Total $24,7787,600 $24,825,400 $24,872,000 $0 $0

Bobcats receive:

Player 2010/11 2011/12 2012/13 2013/14 2014/15
Tayshaun Prince $11,148,760 $0 $0 $0 $0
Rip Hamilton $12,500,000 $12,500,000 $12,500,000 $0 $0
Chris Wilcox $3,000,000 $0 $0 $0 $0
DaJuan Summers $762,195 $1,059,293 $0 $0 $0
Total $27,410,955 $13,559,293 $12,500,000 $0 $0
  • Player option
  • Not fully guaranteed
  • Team option
  • Early termination

Pistons’ perspective

From a talent perspective, the Pistons are getting the best player in this trade in Gerald Wallace.

For all of the fans who miss the traditional toughness associated with Pistons basketball, here you go. Wallace is your guy. He hustles, he dives all over the floor, he’s a good defensive player and he’s a good rebounder for a small forward. He’d give the Pistons a very interesting starting frontcourt with Ben Wallace and Greg Monroe joining him.

Unfortunately, to come away with Wallace in this scenario, the Pistons would be taking on two not great contracts to shed themselves of Hamilton’s. Diop is making $21 million for this season and the final two years on his deal. You can bet he’s exercising that player option for $7.3 million in the last year of that deal. And Matt Carroll, although not making a ridiculous sum, is making more than he’s worth at about $12 million through 2012-13. Livingston’s contract is not fully guaranteed in the final year of the deal, so the Pistons could simply release him after next season or use him as an expiring contract next year in another trade.

The plus side to taking on long-term money in this scenario? Diop, though pricey, would at least fill a need as a defensive-minded big body who rebounds and blocks shots. And collectively, with three guys who are overpaid but on a smaller scale than Hamilton is overpaid, it becomes easier to move them in separate deals than it is to move Hamilton. I just can’t see a team taking on Hamilton’s contract and not requiring the Pistons take back bad contracts in return. In this case, at least Diop and Carroll, a good 3-point shooter, can be OK role players.

The Pistons get a player who made the All-Star team last year and makes a pretty reasonable salary for his production level and they clear out a chance for Ben Gordon to start at shooting guard and Austin Daye to get backup minutes at the two and three.

Bobcats’ perspective

There are a couple draws for Charlotte, although I admit it’s tough to expect the Bobcats to give up their longest-tenured player in Wallace.

They do, however, get significant salary relief for the trouble, picking up nearly $15 million in expiring deals to Prince, Wilcox and Summers. Add in Nazr Mohammed’s nearly $7 million in salary that expires at the end of the season, and Charlotte would be in line for some significant costs coming off the books in the offseason.

The Bobcats, one year after making their first playoff appearance in franchise history, are struggling at 9-16, albeit only 1.5 games out of the eighth spot in the East. Acquiring Hamilton and Prince, two players that Larry Brown is very familiar with, would give Charlotte two veteran wings to add to Stephen Jackson. Hamilton’s ability to score without having to dominate the ball for a full possession could help take pressure off of Jackson on offense and Prince’s ability to run the offense could help take some pressure off of D.J. Augustin, as Charlotte sees a significant drop-off in point guard production with Augustin out of the game.

Admittedly, there’s not a huge incentive to do this trade for Charlotte. They’re essentially swapping out Wallace for Hamilton which is a lose. It just depends on how badly Larry Brown wants to shake up his roster (and let’s be honest, LB has been known to want to shake up a roster or two on occasion) and how desperate Charlotte wants to get out of some long-term money owed to Diop and Carroll.

UPDATE: Mike Payne at Detroit Bad Boys had this take on possible Charlotte trades as well, with a menage-a-trois that would net the Pistons Sam Dalembert.

24 Comments

  • Dec 16, 201012:41 pm
    by detroitpcb

    Reply

    i do not believe Joe Dumars will be allowed to add significant salary to the Pistons payroll before the pending sale of the franchise to a new owner.

    plus – we don’t need a small forward. between Austin Daye, and JJ when he comes back, we have that postion covered.

  • Dec 16, 201012:48 pm
    by Glenn

    Reply

    There were several 3-way trades discussed between Detroit, Charlotte, and other teams on Detroitbadboys.com, if you wanted to see more opinions on this.

  • Dec 16, 201012:56 pm
    by nuetes

    Reply

    delusional much Patrick? if we could get gerald wallace i’d be ecstatic. looking at charlotte’s roster there’s about a millions trade possibilities. i don’t know what charlotte wants but your dealing with two teams that are going nowhere fast so the possibilities are endless.
     
    jaskson/nazr for rip/max
     
    thomas/nazr for rip/daye
     
    wallace/carroll for tay/daye
     
    i could go on. so many contract matchup. but the worst trade i could think of would be the one proposed in the beginning of this – diaw and diop? no thanks. puke.

  • [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Ben Gulker, Patrick Hayes and PistonPowered Feed, Detroit Pistons. Detroit Pistons said: TrueHoop.com – Chad Ford: Charlotte might make a decent trading partner with the Pistons: http://bit.ly/hqL2QT [...]

  • Dec 16, 20101:47 pm
    by Mike Payne

    Reply

    @Detroit PCB:
    Despite our current glut, the Pistons only have one small forward on the books next year– Austin Daye.  Prince, McGrady, Jerebko and Summers are all free agents.

  • Dec 16, 20102:05 pm
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @PCB:

    “plus – we don’t need a small forward. between Austin Daye, and JJ when he comes back, we have that postion covered.”

    Well, to this point they’ve considered Jerebko almost exclusively a power forward. Maybe that changes with roster moves, but I like him in that role for now.

    And sorry, but I’d much rather have a starting SF like Wallace than Daye. Daye certainly has upside, but it’s still unclear whether he can hold down that starting spot on a nightly basis. I’d rather see him get consistent minutes as a reserve backing up the 2 and 3 first.

  • Dec 16, 20102:07 pm
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @nuetes:

    It’s not that delusional. Charlotte has certainly made worse trades. And maybe MJ is dying to be reunited with Rip Hamilton?

    As I said in the post, Charlotte has little incentive to do this unless they really want to clear some salary or unless LB really wants to coach Rip/Prince again. Those things are unlikely, but I don’t think they’re impossible.

  • Dec 16, 20102:09 pm
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    Thanks Glenn, I added the link to the post.

  • Dec 16, 20102:39 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    hayes, this is why i love ya’ and why we don’t usually see eye-to-eye. i won’t bother explaining why this would never happen or work, or why the pistons would never consider it, but i appreciate your effort. it’s fun to read crazy hypotheticals like this.

  • Dec 16, 20102:58 pm
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    I can buy the reasons — namely, long term salary — why it wouldn’t happen.

    But I firmly believe Joe Dumars would jump at the chance to get Gerald Wallace. You’re telling me you wouldn’t love to watch that guy play in Detroit?

  • Dec 16, 20103:33 pm
    by Odeh

    Reply

    Who wouldn’t want Gerald Wallace? BUT, we can get a good big for Tayshaun and this deal would lock our money and trade assets up without a decent Big in return.  Diop is no where near the answer to our front court woes so we’d be stuck in mediocrity for another 3 years.  Also, if we almost moved Rip for Tyson Chandler, who is a big on an expiring contract (2 big pluses), then I would think we can get more in return for our 2 biggest trade assets.
     
    Now if Charlotte wanted to do a deal of Wallace, Carol, and Livingston for Rip, Daye, Bynum, then I’m all for it.  Charlotte gets young talent, a SG (can move Steven Jackson to SF since that is what he used to play), and a backup/starting caliber PG which they need.  Detroit can then start Stuckey, Gordon, Wallace, Monroe, and trade Tayshaun for a Center.  That is a contending lineup!

  • Dec 16, 20103:45 pm
    by nuetes

    Reply

    I don’t want any part of Diop.

  • Dec 16, 20103:46 pm
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @Odeh:

    In no way do I believe the Pistons almost moved Rip for Chandler.

    If the Bobcats ended up trading him for Damp just so they could waive him, why would they considering taking on the $36ish million Rip is owed?

  • Dec 16, 20104:09 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    see, i’d love to see that guy play here, but you’re taking on more “dead money” than you’re getting rid of. plus crash is getting on in age. it’s not like we’re taking on some young building block here. he’s got a very good contract, but you’re taking back over $14 million this season and each of the next two years for the combined talents of diop, carroll and livingston. plus you’ve still got max on the books at $5 million per. not that i’d do this deal with max thrown in instead of wilcox and summers, but there’s just so much money going to role players on less-than desirable contracts. look at it this way: until all these contracts are off the books in the summer of 2013 (!) you have about $20 million, basically 1/3 of your cap space, committed to diop, carroll, livingston and maxiell.
     
    so you’ve left yourself with no flexibility, and the reward is gerald wallace. it’s just not close to enough for “phase two” of this rebuilding nightmare. this is the kind of thing that’s fun to discuss, but it would be a terrible move for the stones. if we were taking on a young franchise player, i might give it some thought (though the “tax” is HEFTY), but not for crash. i just don’t see the upside.

  • Dec 16, 20104:14 pm
    by Glenn

    Reply

    I was thinking about what Odeh said about trading Prince for a starting Center.  Assuming that we couldn’t get a starting caliber center for less than Prince’s $11 million; who would trade a cheap starting big for Prince?; I decided to check and see who would fit such a trade:
    Andrew Bogut, MIL–Eddy Curry, NYK–Tyson Chandler, DAL–Nene, Den–Andris Biedrins, David Lee, GSW–Chris Kaman, LAC–Andrew Bynum, LAL–Emeka Okafor, NOH–Marcus Camby, POR–Samuel Dalembert, SAC–Al Jefferson, Mehmet Okur, UTA
    I think we can throw out everyone except Curry, Biedrins, Lee, Okafor, and Dalembert.  Those teams are already playoff bound, already have a good enough SF, or wouldn’t get enough value back in Prince (or all of the above).  Then immediately we throw out Curry, because we’re looking for starting caliber bigs.
    I don’t see Golden State trading away either big in their prime on a decent contract for an expiring native small forward who they could just pick up in free agency this summer with all the cap space they’ll have.  Although who knows, Gasol for Brown happened once upon a time.
    New Orleans might do the trade if they thought they could use the cap space this summer to sign someone big, or to make them an easier sell, but they would be giving up on a decent season by replacin Okafor with Aaron Gray/Chris Anderson when they just acquired Trevor Ariza, who would become an expensive backup. (No CV/BG jokes please)  Also probably push Chris Paul out the door faster.
    That leaves Dalembert.  The Kings have young bigs to replace him.  They could use a veteran wing.  It would be the best option, and the most likely trade to be accepted.
    *My for salaries came from ESPN Trade Machine.
     
     
     

  • Dec 16, 20104:21 pm
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @Laser:

    I think contracts like the ones Carroll, Maxiell, Livingston, Bynum and even Diop, though he is ridiculously expensive for his production, are not that difficult to move.

    Those guys are overpaid, but in the grand scheme, $4 million for a shooter like Carroll is a gamble a team in need of shooting would take.

    I don’t know. If that’s the best deal the Pistons could do, I’d do it. You end up with Wallace, who is great, and at worst, you clear out one spot on the perimeter glut, you move both of the vets that seem to be only half-heartedly in this. They could do a lot worse than that. A team that started Stuckey, Gordon, Monroe and Wallace x 2  the redux with Villanueva, McGrady, Daye, Bynum, Diop on the second unit would be more competitive and more fun to watch.

  • Dec 16, 20106:40 pm
    by Odeh

    Reply

    @Patrick
    Yes the team would be more competitive but it would still be no better than a 7th seed in the east.  And, we would still lack that frontcourt piece we need to be contenders with no means of obtaining that piece if we do the deal.

  • Dec 16, 20107:20 pm
    by Adam

    Reply

    I may be in correct, but I thought Boris Diaw had a player option for like 9 million next year. No chance that he doesn’t take that option.
    I could be wrong.

  • Dec 16, 20108:48 pm
    by gmehl1977

    Reply

    How funny is the Detroit Bad Boys 3 way trade idea. Dalembert to Detroit, Hamilton to Charlotte, Jackson, Diop to Sacremento. Hey don’t get me wrong the trade would be great for the pistons but unless Larry Brown has a man crush on Hamilton i doubt it will happen. Also you can only just imagine the night clubs Stephen Jackson and Cousins would be shooting up. God help them if the trade was done and they moved to Las Vegas ;-)

  • Dec 16, 201010:37 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    yeah i’m 100% with odeh on this one. it’s just NOWHERE NEAR enough improvement for ALL the team’s flexibility. and you may be able to move someone like carroll, but for more junk. nobody wants those three mediocre players at those prices. and for three full years? not close to something i’d bite on. you’re basically guaranteeing mediocrity for two seasons after this one. and you haven’t even properly addressed the team’s two areas of greatest need (point play and post presence).
     
    in the alternative, you could move tayshaun for just about anything and you’re in a better position right there. i want rip gone, but not bad enough to part with tayshaun (a decided asset) AND take on that much “dead money.” it’s insane. and you just can’t build around wallace. he’s 29 this summer, and by the time those other bums are off the books he’s already 31. if you’d actually do this deal it says a LOT about how desperate we are to do anything at all as long as it’s “something.”

  • [...] There are a couple other trade scenarios out there that are much more complex than this one (see here and here). I am inclined to think that Patrick Hayes is right in that Charlotte would probably want [...]

  • Dec 17, 201012:24 pm
    by Odeh

    Reply

    The only way we should make a trade with Charlotte is if we get Tyrus Thomas from them.  I know he is a BYC player but he can be a part of a package that brings Charlotte financial relief and young talent.  Larry Brown is also not fond of him so we might be able to pry him away.
     
    My Proposal:
    Charlotte Gets:
    Rip
    Tay
    Bynum
    Daye
    Picks
    Detroit Gets:
    Tyrus
    Wallace
    Livingston
    Carroll
     
    It may be a steep price but it might be what we have to do to get a young talent like Tyrus Thomas
     

  • Dec 17, 20102:21 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    so i guess tyrus thomas is to odeh as daye is to PCB as landry fields is to nuetes.
     
    odeh, i like you, but you might have gone off the deep end this time. another problem with hayes’s proposal here is that it gets everyone wasting time thinking about insane, overly-complicated trades.
     
    for the record, as far as i’m concerned, if charlotte wants to take rip straight up for crash or stephen jackson? or for a package of nazr mohammed (expiring), dj augustin (cheap and productive point guard) and one of their rookies to make salaries match? you’d be insane to pass that up. it’s weird to speak in such concrete terms as “only if i get thomas.”

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