Comments on: Charlie Villanueva, Ben Gordon early contenders for Sixth Man award

By: Laser

Laser — Thu, 25 Nov 2010 09:42:45 +0000

oh, but you missed a few on the things i hate: kuester, michael curry, this past offseason where we did nothing to upgrade a pitiful team… though i guess maybe all of these fall squarely on dumars. ok just add dumars a few more times to the list of things i hate. swear to god i’d euthanize him if given a consequence-free opportunity.

i just saw bits of an interview with him on an NBAtv 2004 special. he was so smug, talking all about how he knows the league and how that’s the difference why other people couldn’t do his job. he might be my most hated person i’ve never met right now. a championship and half a decade of highly competitive basketball, yet i’d fire him without blinking for what he’s turned it into.

By: Laser

Laser — Thu, 25 Nov 2010 09:34:23 +0000

@hayes: the will bynum bit is getting old. i like the guy. i’d give him a chance to start a game or two over the worst excuse for a point guard i’ve ever seen. nothing more than that. i’ve come to tayshaun’s defense before, and probably more often. i’d stand up for any piston who was being unfairly criticized. he’s the 9th or 10th man, and he was targeted twice in rapid succession by some joker (was it pcb?) who probably thinks stuckey’s great, once after a bad performance and once after a perfectly fine one. come on, get over it now.

By: frankie d

frankie d — Wed, 24 Nov 2010 21:15:28 +0000

btw, i never said that thomas was one of the dumbest guys in the nba, which you state i essentially wrote.
i was very careful to state that he did more dumb things on the court, not that he was necessarily dumb.
there is a huge distinction.
sometimes really smart people just do dumb things, for some reasons.
on the other hand, some people who seemingly are not very bright – and rodman comes to mind again – do very smart things on the BB court.
rodman has done a lot of things that make you seriously question how smart – or how dumb – he is.
but no one would argue against his genius BB IQ.
is thomas a dumb guy?
i don’t know and i never said that he was.
does he do dumb things on the basketball court. the evidence is pretty clear that he does.

By: frankie d

frankie d — Wed, 24 Nov 2010 19:47:15 +0000

i’ve never said i was any sort of innocent.
i’m a fan and i have strong opinions.
frankly, most of the guys on this site seem to have a problem with people who have strong opinions who are not afraid to express them.
i acknowledged that i may have once personally attacked someone, rather than deal with their opinion, and i noted that i regretted that.
for whatever reason, that has fallen on deaf ears.
again, i simply offered an opinion. as i do always.
opinons are certainly not evidence – unless one is qualified as an expert witness in some sort of trial – but opinions are the grist for sports discussions.
and sometimes those opinions can be butressed by facts, such as statistics. and as hollinger shows, certain stats clearly indicate that thomas does dumb stuff on the court.
high turnover rates are one of the best indicators that players are doing dumb stuff. it is especially true of non-guards, who should not have really high turnover rates.
players who do dumb stuff on the court hurt their teams and therefore coaches are reluctant to play those players no matter how productive they might be.
i certainly would not argue that thomas is not a productive player. obviously he is and obviously if he was given more time, he would be even more productive.
but it is revealing that you do not even discuss the hard statistical evidence that argues against your viewpoint: his turnover rate, the highest for his position in the league, as hollinger documents.
this is “evidence” in anyone’s book, yet you don’t even mention it when discussing thomas. rather than deal with it and attempt to reconcile it with your own argument, you conveniently ignore it.
not exactly a good way to address an obviously strong point.
i would certainly appreciate it if you could refrain from name-calling and ad hominem attacks. i visit this site to discuss BB, and try to stay on subject.
i certainly don’t “no it all”, though i do know a lot about college and nba basketball.
i’ve been following the pistons since i used to go down to the old cobo arena to watch dave debusschre and joe strawder and eddie miles and later dave bing and jimmy walker.
i watched college basketball, as a college student in the ’70′s and saw those great bobby knight indiana teams and watched phil hubbard and ricky green and steve grote and wayman britt and johnny robinson and all of those guys play just about every home game up in ann arbor.
i saw freaking larry bird when he was a rookie, from an almost-courtside seat at the boston garden.
i covered magic when he was at MSU, when i wrote sports for my student newspaper.
i even interviewed – via phone – larry brown, when he was with denver, for an article i wrote when i worked for my university’s student newspaper back in the ’70′s.
so yeah, i do know a lot about basketball, cause i’ve followed it for a heckuva long time and i’ve been privileged to watch it in any number of cities i’ve lived in and that does give me a perspective on the game and players and coaches that lots of folks don’t have.
i would imagine and hope that you would welcome, rather than attack people with that kind of perspective.
but i’ve never, ever said anything close to, “i know it all”.
despite my strong, very well-informed opinions.

By: Patrick Hayes

Patrick Hayes — Wed, 24 Nov 2010 19:43:51 +0000

@nuetes:

Chandler has been a big influence, but they have been better defensively under Carlisle. Kidd doesn't get enough credit for his defense, even if he is a step slower, and they have solid, strong win guys like Butler, Marion and Stevenson who are tough defensively when they want to be.

And Dirk isn't as soft at that end of the court as people make him out to be.

By: nuetes

nuetes — Wed, 24 Nov 2010 19:39:13 +0000

Jason Terry should have this award on lock, but I like what Harrington is doing in Denver. Tyrus Thomas and Warrick should be starting. Both of their teams would be better if they were starting. Same with CV in Detroit. 3 PF’s that would all make their teams better. I’m not sure when it became a trend to have your best PF come off the bench, maybe teams like what LA did with Odom. Except LA has a legit PF to start, and a good one off the bench. Pheonix, Detroit, and Charlotte don’t have any reason not to start these guys.

Also early season should have been in quotation marks or something because I’m still not confident CV and Gordon are going to maintain their production. They didn’t last night. When did Dallas get a good defense? They are 4th in the league in PPG allowed.

By: Patrick Hayes

Patrick Hayes — Wed, 24 Nov 2010 19:18:52 +0000

@frankie d:

"now, i’m not sure what you might be referring to, though it is curious that you would simply “pick a fight” with someone without any sort of provocation."

Haha ... come on man. Don't play innocent. You are a professional provacateur/no-it-all in these comments.

You posted something in your initial comment that said, basically, "I think Ty Thomas is one of the dumbest guys in the NBA."

To me, that's not real hard evidence.

My post is based on what guys are producing this season. This season, Thomas is one of the most productive bench players in the league. Per-minute stats show it, advanced stats like PER and win shares show it and the traditional counting stats even show it as he's among the league leaders in blocks in only about 20 minutes per game.

He's putting up career high numbers in points, offensive rebounds and field goal percentage. He's getting to the line five times a game in just 20 minutes, and shooting above 80 percent there.

It's not even a matter of consistency this year. He's had two really poor games out of 13. Not much different than most any good player in the league -- they occasionally have bad games.

At some point, young players who produce have to play. With Thomas, it's been the same tired story. He out-produced Malik Allen and guys like that, but he's too dumb to play. In Charlotte, he can only get 20 minutes a game because for some reason, it's vital to get Boris Diaw, who is out of shape, a worse defender, a worse rebound and a worse shot blocker, 35 minutes a game?

Thomas's improvement has been noticeable the last two seasons if you watch him, and the statistics back that up.

By: frankie d

frankie d — Wed, 24 Nov 2010 18:53:45 +0000

@ patrickhayes,
in case you haven’t noticed, every person on this planet relies on their own perspective when they make any sort of argument or engage in any discussion.
to say that someone doesn’t is totally nonsensical.
i am accustomed to relying on real evidence in my profession and real evidence is evidence that can be scrutinized and evaluated for its integrity. real evidence is simply not information selectively culled and presented as though it was unassailable gospel. in fact, if anyone has real confidence in their “evidence” they would want it to be subjected to the most rigorous scrutiny imaginable, in order to prove its worthiness.
now, i’m not sure what you might be referring to, though it is curious that you would simply “pick a fight” with someone without any sort of provocation.
very odd, indeed.
you posed a question, and while it may have been intended as a rhetorical question, i attempted to answer it by offering my opinion.
yes, from my perspective, which is all any person on this earth can do.
i have an opinion about thomas’ basketball IQ.
but it is certainly not a unique opinion. this is what john hollinger says about thomas, even though thomas rates highly in his PER ratings, which relies on evidence that can be evaluated for it’s own worth:
“Lacks strength and instincts to score in post. Must reduce turnovers. …
As for his offense … it’s rough, man. Thomas is 6-10, can leap and has a decent midrange J, but he doesn’t have a good feel for the game…
And the turnovers … oh, the turnovers. Thomas led all power forwards in turnover ratio with miscues on 14.3 percent of his possessions, evenly spread between out-of-control charging fouls, passes into row 17 and dribble drives that fell into enemy hands. At the moment he has more confidence in his offensive ability than he really should. That said, he’s just 23, he’s very talented and he made some nice improvements in the other phases of his game last season. .. ”
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger?playerId=3032
and if you google, “tyrus thomas is dumb” or some such search, you will find plenty of other folks who delve in and discuss the same issue. so my “perspective” sad to say, is hardly unique.
i confess.
i actually like thomas, as a player, quite a bit. i do think that he could be a rodman-like impact player if he was smarter.
one of rodman’s most under-appreciated qualities was his extraordinary BB IQ. he had it from the moment he came into the league. he only took shots he knew he could make – except for a couple of notable exceptions – he was a great passer, and his ability to defend was as much a result of his intelligence as his formidable athletic gifts.
most coaches, and especially larry brown, like predictable players, especially smart, predictable players. their worst nightmare is a not-very-bright player – no matter their abilities – whose contributions cannot be counted on, night in and night out. they may throw that player out there to try to get a spark or to throw a different element onto the court, and hope he has magic on a particular night, but most coaches are very reluctant to rely on guys like that. their jobs are on the line.
as hollinger says, thomas is young and he can certainly learn to play within himself and therefore gain the trust of coaches and more PT, but whether he has it in him to do so remains to be seen.

By: Patrick Hayes

Patrick Hayes — Wed, 24 Nov 2010 18:11:54 +0000

@Laser:

Things you hate:

1. Rodney Stuckey 2. Postseason awards 3. Joe Dumars 4. Critical comments on every single Pistons related thing ever written

Things you love:

1. Will Bynum 2. Nothing else

Anything missing from the list?

By: Patrick Hayes

Patrick Hayes — Wed, 24 Nov 2010 18:09:59 +0000

@frankie d:

I'm not gonna get into too much of an argument with you because it's pointless to argue with someone who only relies on his own perspective as evidence, but Thomas is shooting 50 percent. He's scoring 12 a game without ever having a play run for him. He's one of the best shot blockers in the league. He's on a crappy team and he's significantly better than and significantly out-producing the man he's backing up, Boris Diaw. If those aren't cases that he should play more, I don't know what are.