Comments on: The Big Question: Joe Dumars http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/ Your Go-To Source For Pistons Coverage Sat, 18 May 2013 09:53:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Laser http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/comment-page-1/#comment-8971 Laser Wed, 20 Oct 2010 16:37:59 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/#comment-8971 but they didn't have the cap room. so why bring it up? the fact that he's greedy has no bearing on my argument. we could not have had him. he had the chance to opt out and take a max contract from detroit last summer, but he decided not to. that seems like a decent indicator that he didn't want to play here. and dumars could have waited it out a year and gone after boozer in the FA frenzy, but he didn't. but the bottom line is that boozer was never an option for us. perhaps we could have rented him for no reason when his last contract was expiring, but not long term. no way, no how.   also, forgive my hyperbole, but the collective bargaining agreement restricts how much any team can pay, so "any price" is strictly limited to a max contract for five years, and they absolutely would have given him that with enthusiasm. but they didn’t have the cap room. so why bring it up? the fact that he’s greedy has no bearing on my argument. we could not have had him. he had the chance to opt out and take a max contract from detroit last summer, but he decided not to. that seems like a decent indicator that he didn’t want to play here. and dumars could have waited it out a year and gone after boozer in the FA frenzy, but he didn’t. but the bottom line is that boozer was never an option for us. perhaps we could have rented him for no reason when his last contract was expiring, but not long term. no way, no how.
 
also, forgive my hyperbole, but the collective bargaining agreement restricts how much any team can pay, so “any price” is strictly limited to a max contract for five years, and they absolutely would have given him that with enthusiasm.

]]> By: Dan Feldman http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/comment-page-1/#comment-8955 Dan Feldman Wed, 20 Oct 2010 10:33:40 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/#comment-8955 <p>Laser, I disagree. Boozer strikes me as a guy in it largely for the money. If Detroit had the cap room to offer more than the Bulls, I think Boozer would have been a Piston.</p> <p>And no, I don't think ownership would have paid any price to land Boozer.</p> Laser, I disagree. Boozer strikes me as a guy in it largely for the money. If Detroit had the cap room to offer more than the Bulls, I think Boozer would have been a Piston.

And no, I don’t think ownership would have paid any price to land Boozer.

]]> By: Laser http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/comment-page-1/#comment-8837 Laser Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:24:33 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/#comment-8837 wtf does "giving joe a chance" constitute? smiling and waiting patiently for him to collect enough lottery picks to make us respectable again?? the guy couldn't have been a worse GM for the past three seasons. "once he finds a big man for the middle..." ugh. you f*cking kidding me?? get a life. and stop proposing trades that would NEVER HAPPEN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES IN ANY UNIVERSE. you may as well propose James & Bosh for CV & Wilcox, because it has the exact same chance of happening. wtf does “giving joe a chance” constitute? smiling and waiting patiently for him to collect enough lottery picks to make us respectable again?? the guy couldn’t have been a worse GM for the past three seasons. “once he finds a big man for the middle…” ugh. you f*cking kidding me?? get a life. and stop proposing trades that would NEVER HAPPEN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES IN ANY UNIVERSE. you may as well propose James & Bosh for CV & Wilcox, because it has the exact same chance of happening.

]]> By: detroitpcb http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/comment-page-1/#comment-8827 detroitpcb Sat, 16 Oct 2010 20:49:08 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/#comment-8827 @nuetes I love Billips, but if you want to pretend that his performances in the playoffs were not a major reason the Pistons got bounced - then we disagree. However you look at it, it was time to dismantle that team. Should Joe have gotten something for Dice & Sheed? Yes. Should he have traded Rip instead of Billips? Maybe. A backcourt of Stuckey & Billips doesn't sound bad to me because Billips was strong enough to move over and defend opposing two's. But it was time to deconstruct and nobody does that without a down year or two. Hell, when i lived in Boston they wanted to lynch Danny Ainge for the poor teams he put on the floor before he fleeced his buddy McHale for Garnett & signed Ray Allen. Now Ainge is "a great GM"? Let's give Joe a chance. Once he finds the big man for the middle, this team is going to look a lot different and you are going to like a lot of the components much better. Gorat & Bass for CV & Wilcox @nuetes

I love Billips, but if you want to pretend that his performances in the playoffs were not a major reason the Pistons got bounced – then we disagree.

However you look at it, it was time to dismantle that team. Should Joe have gotten something for Dice & Sheed? Yes. Should he have traded Rip instead of Billips? Maybe. A backcourt of Stuckey & Billips doesn’t sound bad to me because Billips was strong enough to move over and defend opposing two’s. But it was time to deconstruct and nobody does that without a down year or two. Hell, when i lived in Boston they wanted to lynch Danny Ainge for the poor teams he put on the floor before he fleeced his buddy McHale for Garnett & signed Ray Allen. Now Ainge is “a great GM”? Let’s give Joe a chance. Once he finds the big man for the middle, this team is going to look a lot different and you are going to like a lot of the components much better.

Gorat & Bass for CV & Wilcox

]]> By: Laser http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/comment-page-1/#comment-8826 Laser Sat, 16 Oct 2010 20:10:00 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/#comment-8826 making excuses for dumars is sad and embarrassing. making excuses for dumars is sad and embarrassing.

]]> By: Jonathan http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/comment-page-1/#comment-8822 Jonathan Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:49:40 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/#comment-8822 Dumars has my respect and support.  Fickle revisionist journalists and fans blast a GM because he didn't pick a 2nd round player who broke out four seasons later, and fawn over him when a firesale marquee pickup falls into his lap. Dumars?  He checks all the boxes in character and franchise branding/identity (very underrated).  He's had more than his fair share of critically praised draft picks and signings.  He takes risks--which is very important--but risks that are calculated and within rational, even if they haven't worked out with (1) under-performing consensus draft picks (Darko), (2) expiring all-league scorers whose skill fell of a cliff (Iverson), (3) signings who produced well below all predictions (Gordon, Villaneuva), and (4) becoming stranded with a wing logjam because a decent big man hasn't become available. Even extending Rip and signing BG -- probably Dumars' least excusable move -- by no means negates all his good work.  We still don't know if (a) the initial plan was to extend Rip and parlay the expiring into a big man that no longer became available, so he settled on a plan of signing impact scorer BG in a weak free agency and trading Rip in a deal that didn't eventuate, or (b) he always saw BG as a sixth man impact scorer who would naturally eat into Rip's minutes as he aged.  I might be crazy, and maybe Rip would have been happy to settle for a lot less money, but I don't think Dumars drastically overpaid to reward an underrated component of the '00s team whose demise has been grossly exaggerated. Joe has one of the toughest jobs in drawing free agents to Detroit.  And I'd take a losing team made up of likeable, hardworking rotation players ANYDAY, over a good team with a rotten egg or five.  With the exception of AI, Dumars makes it his business to get guys that that you want to see play and succeed. With the rise of LeBron, Boston and Orlando, Dumars accepted that Detroit were no longer a top-tier conference team and needed to undertake the painful process of rebuilding.  This was becoming a much better Eastern Conference each year (come on, in the '04 title year the 4th seed in the East was rookie Wade's 42-40 Heat! -- has everybody forgotten our Conference was D-League that year?!) and the Pistons were declining annually. If he'd manage to trade his way into an elite big man over the last eighteen months we wouldn't be having this conversation, but we can't accuse him of passing on one that was available.  As much as I hate this logjam on the wing -- each who I like and want to see play serious starter minutes -- you never know what might happen to another team with a decent, elite big man that forces them to trade him this season. Dumars has my respect and support.  Fickle revisionist journalists and fans blast a GM because he didn’t pick a 2nd round player who broke out four seasons later, and fawn over him when a firesale marquee pickup falls into his lap.
Dumars?  He checks all the boxes in character and franchise branding/identity (very underrated).  He’s had more than his fair share of critically praised draft picks and signings.  He takes risks–which is very important–but risks that are calculated and within rational, even if they haven’t worked out with (1) under-performing consensus draft picks (Darko), (2) expiring all-league scorers whose skill fell of a cliff (Iverson), (3) signings who produced well below all predictions (Gordon, Villaneuva), and (4) becoming stranded with a wing logjam because a decent big man hasn’t become available.
Even extending Rip and signing BG — probably Dumars’ least excusable move — by no means negates all his good work.  We still don’t know if (a) the initial plan was to extend Rip and parlay the expiring into a big man that no longer became available, so he settled on a plan of signing impact scorer BG in a weak free agency and trading Rip in a deal that didn’t eventuate, or (b) he always saw BG as a sixth man impact scorer who would naturally eat into Rip’s minutes as he aged.  I might be crazy, and maybe Rip would have been happy to settle for a lot less money, but I don’t think Dumars drastically overpaid to reward an underrated component of the ’00s team whose demise has been grossly exaggerated.
Joe has one of the toughest jobs in drawing free agents to Detroit.  And I’d take a losing team made up of likeable, hardworking rotation players ANYDAY, over a good team with a rotten egg or five.  With the exception of AI, Dumars makes it his business to get guys that that you want to see play and succeed.
With the rise of LeBron, Boston and Orlando, Dumars accepted that Detroit were no longer a top-tier conference team and needed to undertake the painful process of rebuilding.  This was becoming a much better Eastern Conference each year (come on, in the ’04 title year the 4th seed in the East was rookie Wade’s 42-40 Heat! — has everybody forgotten our Conference was D-League that year?!) and the Pistons were declining annually.
If he’d manage to trade his way into an elite big man over the last eighteen months we wouldn’t be having this conversation, but we can’t accuse him of passing on one that was available.  As much as I hate this logjam on the wing — each who I like and want to see play serious starter minutes — you never know what might happen to another team with a decent, elite big man that forces them to trade him this season.

]]> By: Laser http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/comment-page-1/#comment-8821 Laser Sat, 16 Oct 2010 07:41:11 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/#comment-8821 @nuetes: you may be thrilled to trade away the future for one championship and a handful of "close calls," but i don't feel the same. if i was a PART of the championship team, it would be the utmost thrill and accomplishment, but as someone who merely watched from a couch and rooted for the team, i'm not so sure. yes the championship was amazing, but it's all been varying levels of disappointment, and we don't have any semblance of a plan going forward. and this would be a significantly better team with josh smith added. they'd be exciting and have a good chance at a long stretch of winning basketball. given that the pistons have given me more grief than joy by a MILE lately, my priorities are a bit different. but when you're on a long road to nowhere for no good reason, a championship six years ago loses some of its luster. maybe if sheed stuck to horry and got us two 'ships. maybe.   and i just disagree with the premise that we got sheed for "nothing" as it's treated so often. i don't know how you can refuse to assign any value whatsoever to a draft pick. and no matter how you slice it, that pick BECAME josh smith (regardless of woulda coulda shoudas), and smith would have been on the board in any case. you may be thrilled with one championship, but i'd rather have a consistently reasonably competitive team. @nuetes: you may be thrilled to trade away the future for one championship and a handful of “close calls,” but i don’t feel the same. if i was a PART of the championship team, it would be the utmost thrill and accomplishment, but as someone who merely watched from a couch and rooted for the team, i’m not so sure. yes the championship was amazing, but it’s all been varying levels of disappointment, and we don’t have any semblance of a plan going forward. and this would be a significantly better team with josh smith added. they’d be exciting and have a good chance at a long stretch of winning basketball. given that the pistons have given me more grief than joy by a MILE lately, my priorities are a bit different. but when you’re on a long road to nowhere for no good reason, a championship six years ago loses some of its luster. maybe if sheed stuck to horry and got us two ‘ships. maybe.
 
and i just disagree with the premise that we got sheed for “nothing” as it’s treated so often. i don’t know how you can refuse to assign any value whatsoever to a draft pick. and no matter how you slice it, that pick BECAME josh smith (regardless of woulda coulda shoudas), and smith would have been on the board in any case. you may be thrilled with one championship, but i’d rather have a consistently reasonably competitive team.

]]> By: nuetes http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/comment-page-1/#comment-8818 nuetes Sat, 16 Oct 2010 06:50:37 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/#comment-8818 bit more - you can't judge draft picks after the fact. there is no guarantee dumars drafts josh smith. none. you can't say they traded josh smith for sheed because they didn't. they traded a draft pick for sheed that happened to be josh smith. how many draft picks fail? the odds that atlanta even hit on that draft pick aren't that good. teams have hit on 2nd rounders before, that doesn't mean they had more value before the pick than after it. bit more – you can’t judge draft picks after the fact. there is no guarantee dumars drafts josh smith. none. you can’t say they traded josh smith for sheed because they didn’t. they traded a draft pick for sheed that happened to be josh smith. how many draft picks fail? the odds that atlanta even hit on that draft pick aren’t that good. teams have hit on 2nd rounders before, that doesn’t mean they had more value before the pick than after it.

]]> By: nuetes http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/comment-page-1/#comment-8817 nuetes Sat, 16 Oct 2010 06:38:28 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/#comment-8817 @detroitpcb   Billups might have had his flaws, but if your really picking on him like he's the reason when we are stuck with Stuckey I'm going to have some issues. Billups is 7000 times the PG Stuckey will ever be. The team just wasn't good enough. There have been some very talented teams that won the championship lately. If the Pistons couldn't hack it that certainly wasn't one players fault. Denver might not have even made the playoffs the last two seasons without Billups. The guy is good.   @ laser   Dumars absolutely fleeced Atlanta. I'll take a championship over the possibility of a championship anyday. Any team that makes a trade that results in a championship fleeced the other team. I don't care if the other team acquired a superstar in the process. The championship outweighs everything. The Pistons won it all!!! It happened. There is no guarantee any other way. There is no guarantee Lebron will ever win one. He might have better odds now, but it's certainly not written in stone. The Pistons championship however is written in stone. It can't be taken away. @detroitpcb
 
Billups might have had his flaws, but if your really picking on him like he’s the reason when we are stuck with Stuckey I’m going to have some issues. Billups is 7000 times the PG Stuckey will ever be. The team just wasn’t good enough. There have been some very talented teams that won the championship lately. If the Pistons couldn’t hack it that certainly wasn’t one players fault. Denver might not have even made the playoffs the last two seasons without Billups. The guy is good.
 
@ laser
 
Dumars absolutely fleeced Atlanta. I’ll take a championship over the possibility of a championship anyday. Any team that makes a trade that results in a championship fleeced the other team. I don’t care if the other team acquired a superstar in the process. The championship outweighs everything. The Pistons won it all!!! It happened. There is no guarantee any other way. There is no guarantee Lebron will ever win one. He might have better odds now, but it’s certainly not written in stone. The Pistons championship however is written in stone. It can’t be taken away.

]]> By: detroitpcb http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/comment-page-1/#comment-8810 detroitpcb Sat, 16 Oct 2010 01:38:35 +0000 http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/10/the-big-question-joe-dumars/#comment-8810 sorry guys, but while Billips was definitely nicked up in the playoffs that last two years of his tenure in Detroit, his inability to stay in front of the opposing point guards, and even more importantly, his inability to get over the high trap on offense and either break the opposing team down or get the Pistons in their offensive sets, was the major reason Detroit exited both years. He had a nice first year in Denver but last year those same issues were showing up big. I think his future is at the two guard. And it looks like Joe chose to keep Rip knowing that one of the two had to go. @nuetes - yr right - i think Joe's weakest aspect has been his handling of expiring deals. sorry guys, but while Billips was definitely nicked up in the playoffs that last two years of his tenure in Detroit, his inability to stay in front of the opposing point guards, and even more importantly, his inability to get over the high trap on offense and either break the opposing team down or get the Pistons in their offensive sets, was the major reason Detroit exited both years.

He had a nice first year in Denver but last year those same issues were showing up big. I think his future is at the two guard. And it looks like Joe chose to keep Rip knowing that one of the two had to go.

@nuetes – yr right – i think Joe’s weakest aspect has been his handling of expiring deals.

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