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Jonas Jerebko will miss significant time with torn Achilles

Those strong seven minutes of play from Jonas Jerebko last night were all we’ll be seeing of him for perhaps as long as five months: what was originally called a strained Achilles tendon is actually a torn Achilles tendon, per multiple Pistons sources. And the weirdest part is, on the play that Jerebko left the game, he appeared to be going to the locker room with an elbow injury.

I don’t have much to say. This is obviously devastating. Jerebko is one of the few new addition Pistons who actually embodies the hard-nosed, physical, “dog” style that the Pistons have always played. He’s also a versatile athlete and defender who was a good bet to take another step forward this season, heading into camp as the presumed starter.

As for the power forward position, I assume this means Charlie Villanueva will get his chance to start, or possibly Greg Monroe. It also means the Pistons are going to need some quality minutes out of a person like Chris Wilcox or Ike Diogu, which is a scary proposition to say the least.

59 Comments

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  • Oct 6, 20103:15 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    eh. i’m convinced there are no “important” pistons. perhaps the case could be made for ben wallace, but maxiell filled that void WONDERFULLY when body went down. just a bunch of average basketball players, none with anything particularly special to offer.
     
    this frontcourt was a joke to begin with, and jerebko’s a small forward anyways. BFD. this team’s chances of success couldn’t rightly get any lower than zero, so jerebko’s absence means nothing. sorry.

  • Oct 6, 20104:01 pm
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    Blah. I enjoy your contributions here for the most part, but that’s terrible, half-assed, meaningless analysis man.
    There are no “important” players on the team? What a crock. Jerebko, Daye and Monroe are all extremely important. Wallace, Prince and Hamilton are extremely important because they are the last remaining links to a culture that the team hopes those three young guys embrace and carry on.
    By your logic, since the frontcourt was a “joke” to begin with, losing one of the two best players in that frontcourt means nothing? Sorry, but none of the guys behind Jerebko — Maxiell, Villanueva, Wilcox — are going to be more productive. None of those guys are more important to the team’s future either.
    Is this what’s going to happen all season? You’re going to just show up here and use about 2,000 words a day to basically say “everything sucks”?
    What a waste of time your last comment was. For real.

  • Oct 6, 20104:23 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    look, you can expect some negativity from me as long as there’s nothing worth being positive about. but i won’t log on every day just to sh*t on this team, which needs to be fixed, not sh*t on… i’m particularly frustrated after that preseason game.
     
    that said, in defense of my post. it’s hard for a guy like me to win, because i either get killed for not fleshing out my ideas enough or killed for typing 2,000 words (sometimes both!). everyone thinks i’m so negative, but when something bad happens that doesn’t bother me, i get killed for that too.
     
    the thing is this: jerebko goes down, and you’ve got charlie v and maxiell behind him. neither one of these guys is a quantum leap backwards from jj, and they’re paid a combined $12+ million annually, so presumably they are/were part of the “plan” for this team. they’re not being paid NOT to play, right? and there’s a glut of entirely average PFs on this team. you gotta settle on a rotation some time, so what’s the difference who the guys you pick are. max brings much of the same stuff as jerebko (hustle, toughness, defense) and you said yourself that we need to pare down the rotation, so this just made it a little easier. for once i’m looking on the bright side and i get killed for that. maybe this accelerates monroe’s development. maybe it puts more pressure on charlie v to earn that absurd contract.
     
    the one benefit of having a bunch of interchangeable, completely average players is that if one goes down, you have plenty of mediocre depth to fill in. jerebko is an unskilled energy player (though he stretches the floor respectably, and i do think he’s got plenty of room for improvement). the only reason he’s treated like an UNTOUCHABLE is because the team sucks so hard. in the grand scheme of things, jerebko is a B+ player. and maxiell is a B. big deal. there aren’t enough minutes for everyone who deserves to play anyway, so who cares? our chances of being good just “plummeted” from ZERO to ZERO. if anything, maybe we drop a few more games and get some extra lottery balls.
     
    you have plenty of moderately productive players who can play PF. and jonas is a natural SF anyways. i just don’t see what the big deal is. more lottery balls for us, less conflict for kuester in settling on a frontcourt rotation, less discord in the locker room for players who just can’t be accommodated with a fair amount of playing time. we should be so lucky if something similar happens to any one of our perimeter players who’s not named tayshaun (who, if not healthy and productive in february, creates a CATASTROPHE for this team). it’ll mean at worst a minor step down for the team, at best a significant step up (if it’s stuckey or t-mac), and it makes kuester’s job a whole lot easier. i just don’t see what the problem is. did you think we were talking about a playoff team or something?
     
    also, i have yet to make a comment on this board that was less productive than saying that stuckey did a good job running the offense last night. i may be biased against stuckey, but that’s an objectively incorrect assessment.

  • Oct 6, 20104:36 pm
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    “also, i have yet to make a comment on this board that was less productive than saying that stuckey did a good job running the offense last night. i may be biased against stuckey, but that’s an objectively incorrect assessment.”
    Give me a break. In that very same thread on Stuckey, you were dogging his assist total by saying him finding “cherry pickers” didn’t count or some nonsense.
    Stuckey did what John Kuester seems to want him to do, which is not get in the way. You said yourself, the only time the offense looked remotely fluid was when the starters were in the game. Stuckey is one of those starters. He played some role in the team getting off to an OK start until Jerebko went down.
    Quit the “whoa is me” crap. It doesn’t take that many words to make a sound argument. You get killed because you tend to harp on the same themes over and over again, it has nothing to do with fleshing out an argument or not fleshing out an argument.
    To defend your post by saying “hey, Jerebko getting hurt helps sort out the rotation” is dumb. Who wants injuries, especially to young, cheap and promising players, to be the way a rotation is settled on? How is that good for the team in the long or short term?

  • Oct 6, 20104:39 pm
    by nuetes

    Reply

    Jerebko getting hurt is a huge deal. HUGE. He really is a good young player. He’s the Pistons most active big. He’s the only one that can move his feet on defense. CV, Monroe, and Max are way too slow. Monroe with 3 boards and 4 fouls in 23 minutes. That’s not going to cut it. The Pistons front court is a disaster and Jerebko going down certainly doesn’t help things. My only solution is to start Daye at PF. I’m serious. I can’t stand watching CV play. Side bar – how on earth can Mcgrady play 8 minutes and wind up with a +/- of -16? He didn’t take a shot, didn’t score a point, he didn’t do anything. New Pistons win projection: 31 wins.
     
    How bad is Marv Albert? Apparently Miguel Cabrera still plays for the Florida Marlins.

  • Oct 6, 20105:00 pm
    by alex

    Reply

    Doubtful that this would be a silver lining, but the only positive I can see from jerebko going down is that our front court is now so poor that Joe D might really be forced to make a move.  I know it takes another team willing to do it and Dumars seems to think the only trades worth doing are ones where he is the clear winner in his mind.  I’ve always backed Dumars and liked what he’s done overall as a gm, but he has a huge problem in over-valuing guys on his team.  I know in a recent interview he said he’s only had trade offers this summer that he considered to be lateral where the team wouldn’t get better or that they would get worse.  I just have to say that I doubt that is true.  Because of the value he places on rip and tay thinking they are worth more than they are, those trade offers may seem lateral to him, but I bet there were  a couple that could have helped the front court.  Maybe the guy we would get wouldn’t be “as good as” rip or tay, but if you can get a player a notch below talent wise that can bolster us up front where our talent is lacking, you have to go for it at this point.
    Maybe that’s overreacting.  I am just far too frusterated after having an early injury like that last night.  That whole night felt like last season revisited and made me sick to my stomach.

  • Oct 6, 20105:07 pm
    by Gabe

    Reply

    Anyone that says losing Jerebko isn’t a big deal may as well have a big flashing “ignore me” sign on their forehead.
    The injury sucks for this season on a wins/losses level (Jerebko was the second most productive player on the roster last season, and looked primed to improve) and an entertainment level (he was fun to watch, played vintage Detroit basketball, etc…). And thinking long-term, this sucks even more. Achilles injuries are bad news for basketball players, especially players like Jerebko who depend on quickness, mobility, and athleticism. Basically, this news sucks really, really bad.

  • Oct 6, 20105:08 pm
    by nuetes

    Reply

    The front court is hanging by a 36 year old thread.

  • Oct 6, 20105:46 pm
    by detroitpcb

    Reply

    This kid was a very important component of the starting five last year and was going to be even better this year. In addition to his hustle, offensive rebounding, solid defense, and acute court awareness, JJ was stronger this year, more able to hold defensive position in the low block and he was more confident offensively.

    This is a huge blow.

  • Oct 6, 20106:01 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    1) obviously you people think you’re posting on a blog about a good team. this team wasn’t winning games with or without jerebko. it’s not like magglio going down right out of the gate after the all-star break in a pennant chase. so a bad team gets a little worse. more lottery balls for me. apparently we’re rebuilding through the draft anyways. and i can’t stress enough, cat’s a small forward anyways.
     
    he was fun to watch, i’ll give you that. real shame about that.
     
    2) ok so we traded chauncey so that stuckey could “not get in the way.” right. makes perfect sense. and all this chatter he’s been spitting about taking charge, stepping up, being a leader, being aggressive, running more. those are all allusions to just getting out of everybody’s way. cool. that’s what everybody wants from a good starting point guard: invisibility. and boy did he deliver! he certainly stayed out of the way of the opposing PGs.
     
    if you watch the start of that game, you know, the stretch where the team was playing well… stuckey crossed the timeline, passed it off to someone else to make a decision and ran around like rip hamilton. god forbid it was bynum in there actually creating some plays for his teammates. all of stuckey’s assists came in the second half.

  • Oct 6, 20108:37 pm
    by kent

    Reply

    ugh…I thought that i wanted Charlie V to start so that the Pistons would have more scoring in the front court, but he looked terrible against the Heat.  Charlie’s shots werent falling and his defense against Bosh was awful. 

    I’ll really miss Jonas’ energy and good defense.  One play comes to mind last night: Lebron took on JJ one-on-one, drove towards the hoop and scored, but JJ played him perfectly.  He could have really made strides this year. 

    The one positive here is that Greg Monroe will get more playing time.

    Tayshaun now appears to be our best player, and he’ll be traded by the deadline.  If i felt that we were close to contending, i’d prefer to re-sign him.  Too bad…he’s been my favorite piston since game 2 of the 2004 ECFs (although i did name my dog Chauncey).

  • Oct 6, 20109:05 pm
    by Vince

    Reply

    Wow, well after seeing Jonas fall I didn’t expect him to have torn his achilles tendon, that’s a big blow towards the team, anyone who says otherwise is a blind nitwit. Terrico’s injury is also very dissapointing, I had high hopes for the rookie, but in a way I think Laser is right, this does open up the roster and clears up the bench somewhat even though the circumstances are unfortunate… 

    I am cringing at the thought of Villanueva as the starting PF, this team is going absolutely nowhere whith the type of offence and defense that he is playing at the moment, which is why I’m hoping Monroe will be the starter.

    Prince, Gordon, Daye and Bynum were the only good players I saw on our side against Miami, I’m going to regret saying this but I think Rip is the one to be traded if there is to be some progress. 

    I agree with Laser about Stuckey, he has to go, watching him play is excruciating, there is no doubt in my mind that he should be on the trading block along with Rip, Villanueva and Wilcox. 

    As far as I’m concerned T-Mac should be on the inactive list with JJ and Terrico, his time on the court reminded my of cousins’ netball team, he didn’t do anything interesting and was a major dissapointment.

    With JJ gone I expect a trade underway, and the starting lineup to look a bit more like this:

    C- Wallace/Wilcox
    PF-Monroe/Maxiell
    SF-Prince/Daye
    SG-Rip/Gordon
    PG-Bynum/Stuckey

    Hopefully JJ and Terrico’s injuries will heal quickly and well… 

  • Oct 7, 20103:05 am
    by Laser

    Reply

    ok. ugh. “blind nitwit.” right.
     
    i’m a bit picture guy. when i think of things beign GOOD or BAD or NEITHER to the pistons, i think in term of the long-term picture. our team is rotten and can not win as constructed. jonas or no jonas, tayshaun or no tayshaun, it doesn’t matter. we will lose at least 50 games. we have nothing to play for this season.
     
    this team has been around almost in its entirety for a full season, healthy or not, and they came out and played one of the most disjointed, dysfunctional preseason games i’ve ever seen. nobody seemed to know what they were doing, nobody seemed to know their roles. even without the “big three” miami looked coherent and coordinated. nobody who watched that game would have guessed miami was the team that just got put together. we had a disorganized, freewheeling offense that did not work. we were abysmal defensively.
     
    all the people who think this is such horrible news were probably excited about the team finishing the season with 4 wins in their last six games. me, i don’t care about a few wins or losses here or there; this was never a playoff team to begin with. more losses means more ping pong balls means the hope of righting the ship and having a bright future.
     
    what’s better for the team’s win-loss record now isn’t necessarily better for the team’s near future. kuester obviously has no idea what he’s doing, we don’t have the pieces to succeed, what’s the real difference if jerebko plays or not. it’s not like he was DYING for minutes and development; i’ve seen enough to know he’s good and will be an important part of the team’s future. it’s not like austin daye or greg monroe, who need to be brought along and would suffer greatly from the missed time. or stuckey, where he’s in a contract year and we have to decide if he’s what this team needs (he isn’t). or tayshaun, who needs to be healthy and productive to have good value at the trade deadline. we know what we have with jonas, we know it’s good, we know he’ll be back when this team is ready to start making sense.
     
    but as long as this team is a directionless mess with a hodgepodge of interchangeable wing players who only look to score and mediocre power forwards who only look to score, we’re going to stink. the only downside to this is that we lost a guy who’s fun to watch. so there’s that. but winning a few more games this season would only slow down our improvement. let’s look at the bright side: more minutes for greg monroe and austin daye, who could use the development more than jonas could. heck, dajuan summers of all people might actually get a chance. lord knows that guy’s been DYING to make an impression. i feel bad for the guy, i’m sad i won’t get to see him play, but this isn’t some major blow to the long-term picture. and that’s the only picture that really matters.

  • Oct 7, 20103:05 am
    by Laser

    Reply

    sorry, typo at the very start. “big” picture guy. big picture.

  • Oct 7, 20108:21 am
    by detroitpcb

    Reply

    @Laser

    look laser, the Pistons are just lacking the one piece to build around. Then they could choose the complementary parts they want to keep. The mediocrity you talk about and see is just that lack of a focus. it is obvious that Q has no idea what he is doing but who do you build your offense around? The pieces Q has been given mean his team will rely on the perimeter J. So do you build around Rip and his movement, around Ben Gordon, around T-Mac or Austin Daye? Q has no clue.

    Myself, i think we have some great pieces on this team – I love the potential of Day, JJ, and Monroe. I think Will is a solid point guard off the bench. I think it is possible that CV could become a very useful scoring 6th man. I actually think Stuckey could be a solid two guard if they just let him play that position.

    Rip, Ben Gordon, T-Mac, J-Max, Wilcox, and even Tay whom i agree is the best player on the team, should be trade chips to get the big man and/or premire point guard that we need to build around.

  • Oct 7, 20108:22 am
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @Laser:
    If you’re point is that because since the team might be bad, it doesn’t matter if Jerebko or anyone else gets hurt, you’re just wrong. If Jerebko is hurt, he can’t be on the court improving, right? Maybe the team loses more without Jerebko (they probably do, actually) which leads to a better draft pick. But isn’t Jerebko semi-important to the long-term future of the team? Isn’t it imperative for him to continue to improve? There is no way this is anything but a bad thing. You lose someone who was fun to watch, boo-hoo. The team loses arguably its best young player, the one young guy who exhibited the qualities as far as toughness, work ethic and defense last year. Jerebko loses a season to an injury that is really painful and can severely limit the mobility and athleticism that his game depends on.
    The people who think this is horrible news are called people with brains. It’s not about picking up two additional wins or whatever you think Jerebko was good for. It’s about being disappointed that one of only a couple guys who played like he cared last year is out. It’s about being disappointed that his development as a NBA player is going to be not only delayed by a year, but contingent on him rebounding well from a painful injury. It’s about, whether the team is good or bad, wanting to see the best, hardest-working players play.
    The problem I and most others have with your posts on this thread are that they read like you could care less. If that’s the case, why watch? Why write diatribes in the comments section? We know where you stand. You think the team is gonna suck. That’s fine. There’s a good chance they will.
    It’s still NBA basketball and it’s still a new season. Quit acting like everyone who is interested in watching is an idiot for not seeing the negative in everything the way you are.

  • Oct 7, 20108:25 am
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @Vince:
    I hope you’re right that Monroe starts, but I can’t see Villanueva not being given every opportunity to get that starting spot. The more likely scenario, I think, is Villanueva opening the season as the starter and Monroe taking the job from him at some point.

  • Oct 7, 20108:28 am
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @Kent:
    That play you mention against LeBron was the play that made me say, “Whoa … this guy is gonna be much better this year.”
    Last year, Jerebko sometimes didn’t move his feet well against quicker perimeter guys. On that play, against physically the best player in the league, he did everything perfectly. That Jerebko/Prince/Wallace combo up front would’ve been amazing on pick-and-roll defense. All three of those guys are disruptive and long-armed and athletic defenders. The Pistons defense would’ve been much improved with those three starting together, it appeared.

  • Oct 7, 20108:30 am
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @Gabe:
    Great comment.

  • Oct 7, 20108:31 am
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @Alex:
    Something else to consider: it’s possible Dumars was told not to make any trades with the team for sale. Of course he can’t say that publicly, so the easy way out is to say that none were offered that improved the team. If he was told not to add long-term salary, and with Prince as his most sought after trade piece, any trade for him would’ve most likely added long-term salary, you can’t really blame him for not making a move.

  • Oct 7, 20109:42 am
    by Adam

    Reply

    JONAS GOING DOWN IS NOT A BIG DEAL…. I hate the fact he got hurt, but with him and Ben at the 4&5 was not a good look. The Pistons are not suffering cause he went down. Charlie V, will fit right in and they still have Max & Monroe.
    THE PROBLEM IS:
    The Pistons have a lot of talent, but too me they do not have the right Coach for the Job. The line ups he put on the floor do not make sense. He do not any balance in his line ups.

  • Oct 7, 20109:58 am
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @Adam:
    Again, what is your logic that it’s not a big deal? He’s arguably their best young player. He’s constantly improving. How is Jerebko possibly missing the season not a “big deal”?

  • Oct 7, 201010:31 am
    by Adam

    Reply

    @ PATRICK
    Jonas has no real talent at all. He is a hustle player… Jonas cant hold Bosh, Duncan, KG, Boozer, Howard, Dirk, etc…..  And if they move him to the 3 spot, he will get exposed there too.
    He is not a scorer and other teams are not going focus on him unlike Charlie V.
    If the pistons suck this year, IT WILL NOT BE BECAUSE JONAS JEREBKO IS HURT.
    No one in the Pistons Org is going to say we are losing because JJ is hurt. He does not have that much of an impact.

  • Oct 7, 201010:55 am
    by nuetes

    Reply

    If the Pistons suck this year, wait the Pistons are going to suck this year, but if they suck harder then it will absolutely be because Jerebko is hurt. Nobody even knows what Jerebko was about to offer this season. His reputation as a hustle player is a farce after the way he carried his Swedish team in the euro-league over the summer. Even if that league is a joke the fact he was the primary ball handler on that squad says the guy has some skills he hasn’t quite shown at the NBA level. The problem is we don’t have anyone that good to replace him. Jerebko might not have been an all-star, but he was still the most productive PF on the team. Having CV play more can’t be a good thing for the win/loss record, nor can having Max or Wilcox play more. Best case scenario since the team is going to suck no matter what is to let Daye and Monroe split time at PF and send CV to the d-league, at least those are my recommendations. That would make the games more watchable.

  • Oct 7, 201011:03 am
    by Adam

    Reply

    @ Nuetes
    The pistons dont need JJ and Im telling you know one in the front office is saying when JJ comes back we will be much better team.
     
     

  • Oct 7, 201011:05 am
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @Adam:
    He was arguably their second best player a year ago. Averaged almost 10 points on 7 shots. Just for comparison: it took Rodney Stuckey 15 shots to get his 16 points per game last year. He produced when given more minutes. He’s only 23 years old and improved over the summer. His numbers playing in the World Championships were insane. He also came into camp in great shape, he added muscle and he was more confident.
    They have no one on the roster who will replace the things Jerebko is able to do. It’s a huge, huge loss for the them. Jerebko is a better all-around player than Villanueva and Maxiell, and he’s certainly better than Wilcox. Hopefully, Monroe is ready to play right away.

  • Oct 7, 201011:06 am
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @myself:
    I shouldn’t have said the World Championships. I meant the Euro League, as Nuetes said. My fault.

  • Oct 7, 201011:10 am
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @nuetes:
    Unfortunately, CV has played to long to be sent to the D-League. Not the worst suggestion I’ve heard as far as what to do with him though.
    @Adam:
    The front office is absolutely lamenting the fact that Jerebko is hurt. Are you crazy? There is a reason he came into camp as the starter. He’s their most proven young player. He’s more than just a “hustle” player. “Hustle” players are guys like Louis Amundson. Not particulary skilled, but they bring good energy and get you like 3 points per game. Jerebko averaged 9 and 7 as a rookie. Those stats are legit. I don’t think he’ll be an all-star, but he’s very skilled in several facets of the game and getting better all the time. He’s efficient, works hard and is productive without having to dominate the ball. He’s absolutely the kind of player the front office wants on the floor. You’d prefer to watch the overpaid/injury prone/energy-less guys like Wilcox/Villanueva?

  • Oct 7, 201011:13 am
    by Gabe

    Reply

    I have a feeling this isn’t worth the effort, but I have a free couple minutes:
     
    Adam:
    Whatever your subjective opinion of Jerebko’s “talent,” the advanced basketball metrics which correlate closest to actual wins and losses all say he was the second most productive player on the team last season.
    Also, scoring is a single skill. It is not, on its own, more valuable than several other skills (and efficient scoring is more valuable than volume scoring). This basic fact of basketball is why players like Charlie V tend to end up on losing teams. And it is also why players like Jerebko (and Ben Wallace) are productive despite not being “scorers.”
     
    Laser:
    You seem to have a misconception about how teams improve. You say, “they already suck, what’s so bad about losing more games.” Believe me, if you were on detroitbadboys.com last season after that little suicidal win streak to end the year, you would have seen a bunch of very pissed off hard-core fans (me included). Losing can be necessary, especially for teams already in the lottery.
    But, the way teams improve is by holding on to productive young (CHEAP!) players, and dumping less productive old (expensive) players. Jerebko was a means to that end. Losing a young productive (cheap) player to injury does not help the team progress. Because while it does lead to more losses, it partially eliminates the upside of that losing– i.e. giving an already productive young player minutes so that he can continue to improve individually, and ultimately help the team more in the future.

  • Oct 7, 201011:13 am
    by nuetes

    Reply

    @adam – the Pistons do need JJ. Bad. Don’t get me wrong it’s not like in the grand scheme of things JJ is the difference between the playoffs and not, more likely he’s the difference between the 10th worst record and the 5th worst record in the NBA. Still he was a good young player with room to grow, he was fun to watch, and most importantly he was productive at a spot sorely needing it. If I have to watch CV, Max, and Wilcox take Jerebko’s minutes this year I’m not going to be a happy camper. If Daye or Monroe don’t steal some or ALL of JJ’s minutes I’m going to pull a laser on this team.

  • Oct 7, 201011:55 am
    by Adam

    Reply

    @ Nuetes, Gabe, and Pat…
    JJ never had 25 and 10 night last year….  You guys are trying so hard to find away to say JJ was the second best player on the team and he was this and that.  HE IS A GOOD HUSTLE PLAYER. THAT’S IT.
    At the end of the day, the Pistons will not suffer because he is out.
    Max is a much better player then him, which is already proven and  Charlie V is a better then JJ over all.

  • Oct 7, 201012:28 pm
    by nuetes

    Reply

    @adam – I can’t even comment on that absurdity. It’s so hard to find a rebuttal to complete nonsense. Jerebko was a rookie last season. A rookie! He came over from Europe and played very well. He has room to grow out of the hustle player stigma you’ve attached him to. Scoring is not the only way to make an impact on the game, and CV doesn’t even score that efficiently, especially for a big man. Webber even made the comment during that game that he thought Villanueva was mismatched as a PF and was basically an over-sized SF. I don’t know what he is but he’s not productive outside of scoring, and he doesn’t do that well enough to call him efficient at it. Jerebko was the team’s best option at PF simple as that. Was he a good option? That’s a different argument, but given the roster he was the best option. The win/loss record will be impacted negatively with Jerebko’s injury. Don’t get me wrong it might be a blessing in disguise because the team is in need of some serious talent, and the draft could help that cause, but to dismiss Jerebko’s impact as negligible is crazy.

  • Oct 7, 20101:01 pm
    by Lee Scruggs

    Reply

    Patrick–I think that you really just like arguing with Laser–no matter the side he takes. I actually agree with you both but ultimately with Laser in that, given the very important energy Jerebko brings to the table, his absence will probably equal a net increase in lottery balls and aversion from the loosing culture that has developed from Prince and Rip’s disaffectedness. A young player with a positive attitude combined with veterans who long to be elsewhere do not a good mix make.
    Frankly, this team, Joe D in particular, deserves to be sh*# on. It was Joe who allowed Chauncey and Rip to talk him in to moving away from a defensive philosophy that had won them a ring in a blow out to an offensive one with limited offensive talent and from at least one more championship to what we have witnessed since. Worse yet, it was Joe who blew the trade value of Billups, Hamilton and Tayshaun after openly dressing down his players after the loss to Cleveland in 2008. All three had strong interest from other teams because of their playoff success but other GM’s quickly realized that the price for them went down because Joe had painted himself in a corner (witness Denvers offer digressing from Carmelo to AI). Those players then HAD to be traded because they certainly weren’t going to play for Joe again after being chided so publicly–as we have seen.
    Now, Joe and the Pistons are in that same corner only the cap space created by Chauncey’s exit has returned Charlie V and Gordon while Prince and Rip are 2 years older and still miserably waiting for a way out.
    If you notice, Detriot received no serious attention from free top tier free agents this summer–unless you count T Mac. The Pistons will have to rebuild through the draft and trades, though their draft history has not been great and have few strong trade assets. Joe will also have get over obsession with 2-guards. I know he was one but four 2-guards on one team taking up so much cap space is ridiculous.
    So more lottery balls and less fraterniztion between young talent and veterans desperately waiting for Joe D to figure it out–it’s a good thing.

  • Oct 7, 20101:02 pm
    by Gabe

    Reply

    Had a feeling it was a mistake to ignore my own advice. Re-applying “ignore me” signs to the appropriate people.

  • Oct 7, 20101:26 pm
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    Man, Nuetes and Gabe, I feel you guys. Some total absurdity going on in these threads.
    @Adam:
    There’s no rebuttal for your argument. I will take a team full of Jerebko’s and give you a team full of Maxiell/Villanuevas and you will lose every time. Ben Wallace has never really scored. Is he just a hustle player?
    Seriously, every player should hustle. They’re getting paid good money to be professionals. You talk about hustling and playing hard as if those are not desirable qualities. Let’s compare with someone like Villanueva for instance. Maybe he’s more physically talented (that’s debatable, but we’ll go with it) than Jerebko. What has Villanueva ever done with that talent? He’s underachieved, he’s been benched by three teams for not playing defense and his shot selection is just as atrocious now as it was when he was a rookie chucker in Toronto.
    Jerebko, meanwhile, rarely takes what could be defined as a poor shot. He plays defense. He rebounds. He’s able to start the break after getting a rebound because he can handle the ball a little bit. He’s a terrific offensive rebounder, giving the Pistons extra possessions, which is vital consideirng they aren’t a good shooting team. All of those things make him a more valuable piece to put on the court than a guy like Villanueva, who might do one thing (score) well, but there are nights when he’ll also shoot 2-for-15.

  • Oct 7, 20101:27 pm
    by detroitpcb

    Reply

    can’t believe how stupid Adam’s comments are. In 27 minutes a game JJ averaged 12 points and 6 rebound AS A ROOKIE!!!!!!!!!!!!! And many of his most important contributions do not even show up on the stat sheet. During the second half of the season he was also playing out of position. This summer he got stronger and gained confidence. I note that 7% of the general manager’s in the league expected him to have a breakout season.

    Basically, yr a bleeping idiot. I suppose you think Chris Wilcox is a better option?

  • Oct 7, 20101:44 pm
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @Lee Scruggs:
    What a weird comment. I’m going to address a few of your lines.
    “Patrick–I think that you really just like arguing with Laser–no matter the side he takes. I actually agree with you both”
    Weird to say you agree with people who are arguing completely different things.
    “his absence will probably equal a net increase in lottery balls and aversion from the loosing culture that has developed from Prince and Rip’s disaffectedness. A young player with a positive attitude combined with veterans who long to be elsewhere do not a good mix make.”
    It’s a major stretch to say they “long” to be elsewhere. When has either suggested they don’t want to be in Detroit? Or when has anyone ever reported that either player is a malcontent? Or that Dumars is desperate to trade either one?
    The situation has always been this: if there is a deal that Dumars feels makes the team better, he’ll make it. If there isn’t one, he’s fine with those two guys on his team.
    “It was Joe who allowed Chauncey and Rip to talk him in to moving away from a defensive philosophy that had won them a ring in a blow out to an offensive one with limited offensive talent and from at least one more championship to what we have witnessed since”
    When were the Pistons not a defensive-minded, halfcourt team? They were always those things. When did this conversation you speak of take place?
    The only change in the era was a coaching chance from Brown to Flip Saunders, who ran a much more open offensive system than Brown. But that’s not hard since LB’s perfect offense is using 23 of the 24 seconds each possession. Flip’s was still a halfcourt system. And it’s not like the Pistons weren’t a defensive team at that point. They were still top five in the league every year in defense under Saunders.
    “Joe had painted himself in a corner (witness Denvers offer digressing from Carmelo to AI). Those players then HAD to be traded because they certainly weren’t going to play for Joe again after being chided so publicly–as we have seen.”
    Denver never offered Carmelo Anthony in a trade for Billups. Detroit may have asked for him, but Denver never, ever offered him.
    “If you notice, Detriot received no serious attention from free top tier free agents this summer–unless you count T Mac.”
    Why would a top tier free agent consider a team that didn’t have the cap space to sign him?
    “The Pistons will have to rebuild through the draft and trades, though their draft history has not been great and have few strong trade assets.”
    Prince’s expiring contract, Daye, Jerebko (pre-injury), Monroe, Wilcox’s expiring contract and even a reasonably signed but productive player like Bynum are all players I would consider assets. Even guys like White and Summers are cheap filler contracts that could be used in bigger trades. Those are assets in any trade as well.
    “So more lottery balls and less fraterniztion between young talent and veterans desperately waiting for Joe D to figure it out–it’s a good thing.”
    That is an insanely stupid comment (not unlike the rest of your comments). Prince is one of the smartest players in the league. Ben Wallace is one of the hardest working guys who has ever played. Hamilton is coming off injuries, but he’s always been in better shape than virtually every player in the league. Those guys all work. They are professionals. They have won a title and been on title contending teams for most of their careers. Those are EXACTLY the kinds of players you want your young players around “fraternizing” with.
    What would you prefer? Jerebko go get Tweeting lessons from Charlie V or hang out in the weight room with Ben Wallace? You want Austin Daye to spend time with Chris Wilcox, or would you rather he learn about the insane running program that Rip Hamilton trains with every offseason?

  • Oct 7, 20102:34 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    i hope adam has served as a nice contrast for my stance. it should be clear as a bell that i’m not saying what he’s saying, i don’t agree with him, and he’s objectively wrong.
     
    i’m tired of people saying “laser, you don’t understand this and that.” i understand. you people may not agree with my opinions, but i’m a reasonably smart guy and i understand the situation.
     
    i’m not happy jonas went down. i didn’t wish for it to happen, and it doesn’t make me happy. it’s just that i shrug off this bad news. i don’t think it has all that much impact on the long-term prospects of the team, and i think those are the only prospects worth worrying about. i’m happy to focus on the positive aspects of this unfortunate situation, that’s all. nothing we say here can change what’s going on with that handsome swede.
     
    i love jonas. i love his game, love to watch him play, love what he brings to the team. he’s on my short list of roster favorites, perhaps only behind tayshaun and bynum. and yes he has room to improve and will be hurt by this setback, but i don’t think he’ll be hurt THAT much. not as much as a daye or a monroe, who have rough games and need the confidence and experience. sure jonas was just about to enter his second year in the NBA, but he already has two years of professional basketball under his belt. i’ve always said he had room for improvement, but the jonas you saw last year is probably a good approximation of the jonas you’ll see for years to come. he just doesn’t have the ceiling of an austin daye where the sky is the limit and this kind of setback could be devastating to him.
     
    the only thing this setback is devastating to is the 2010-2011 pistons. this is FAR from the worst thing in the world for the 2011-2012 pistons (of which jonas WILL be a part). he’ll miss that extra year of development, but he’s the kind of guy who needs it less than most anybody. they don’t run plays for him, he hustles and does the dirty work, he can play with anyone. i am not very worried about jonas jerebko himself.
     
    i suppose the one thing i don’t understand is why this is a very controversial stance. jonas is great, we need him, but it’s not a catastrophe for him to sit out a season. ben wallace is still there to lead by example, there will be more minutes to force villanueva to step up and maybe even do some of the things jonas was known for (all the stuff charlie’s never done), more minutes for guys like monroe and daye. dajuan summers might even suit up once or twice. *GASP*
     
    there were rumors about chris wilcox impressing at camp and forcing his way into the rotation. that would have created a situation where daye, monroe or maxiell (t-mac if we were smart, but let’s get real. he probably fancies himself a starter) would have been exiled to the inactive list. any of the three would be a problem for this team. max on the inactive list?? dude could make the active roster of any team in the league, but he could conceivably be inactive for us if wilcox beat him out. it’s insanity, but it’s true. maybe pistons.com was just blowing smoke, but wilcox did start with the first unit at open practice, and he was good.
     
    so i’m just not wringing my hands over this. why crucify me? we have different outlooks. i’m not calling anyone stupid, so i’ve got that going for me. i’m not saying jonas stinks or isn’t important. he’s VERY important. one of the most important pistons, but his particular game is the kind that gives me confidence he’ll step into the rotation next year and hardly have missed a beat. and hopefully he’ll be playing on a pistons team that can compete in the NBA. this one sure couldn’t.

  • Oct 7, 20102:51 pm
    by nuetes

    Reply

    @laser – nice comment. I would just say though that I think there is room for improvement in Jerebko’s game. Maybe not to a huge extent, but I would have liked for him to play the year to find out. Another look on the bright side – this certainly makes him cheaper to bring back. Sucks for JJ and sucks for the 2010-11 Pistons yes, and it also sucks for the fans. In the long-run it may not be a huge deal, although this isn’t exactly an easy injury to recover from, but it makes an already bleak looking season bleaker and that’s rough.

  • Oct 7, 20103:34 pm
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @laser:
    “i suppose the one thing i don’t understand is why this is a very controversial stance.”
    Perhaps because it is a different stance than you originally took, when you said, “i’m convinced there are no “important” pistons.” Or when you said this: “this team’s chances of success couldn’t rightly get any lower than zero, so jerebko’s absence means nothing. sorry.”
    Those are very different comments than what you said in your last comment.
    And I don’t think anyone associated your comments with Adam’s. He’s obviously on a planet all by himself here.

  • Oct 7, 20104:35 pm
    by DoctorDaveT.com

    Reply

    Hey, PP,
    my two cents…. Barring more injuries, here’s our opening night lineup:
    THE FIRST FIVE CYLINDERS
    C – Wallace
    PF – CV
    SF – Prince
    SG – Hamilton
    PG – Stuckey
    THE NEXT THREE CYLINDERS
    G – Bynum
    G/SF – Gordon
    F/C – Monroe
    (Honorary 9th Cylinder – TMac)
    So there’s your Pistons V8 engine most nights. NOTE: I don’t believe those first 8 are based on merit; rather, I think it’s just reality setting it. Hopefully when it’s obvious this team can’t compete, the future of the DPs will get to play – Daye, Summers, White (when healthy).

  • Oct 7, 20104:35 pm
    by Lee Scruggs

    Reply

    Not a weird comment at all–I agree with certain points that you both made but ultimately agreed with Lasers conclusion. Weird would be your supercilious tendency to argue both ends of a comment or question–reflection of a person who is desperate to be right all of the time.

    Now–let’s address some of your retorts:

    Rip or Tayshuan not wanting to be in Detroit: Simple–Their lack of production when healthy, their dejected responses to Joe’s announcement of consequences for a team that layed down the way we did and that changes WILL be made etc. He publicly accused them of quitting and promised that heads would roll if the deals were there. Most telling, their lack-luster performance on the court when playing healthy. If that’s a mystery to you, you might try watching a game or two.

    Dumars on a deal: would that be the deal of Chauncey for AI that Joe said Denver would need to do much better on and then ended making that same deal?

    The conversation about switching philosophies: When Davidson became fed up with Larry Brown and decided to look for another coach. The press coverage was quite heavy at the time regarding Rip and Chauncey’s lobbying for a more offensive minded coach resulting in the hiring of Flip Saunders. Not sure where you were at the time–possibly taking a couple of days to build your positions for each side of some argument.

    Regarding their top five defensive prowess under Flip: Ben Wallace would heartily disagree with you just as he did openly(in the press and on the court) with his teammates abandoning help defense. The money that Chicago offered him was NOT the only reason he left Detroit. He simply didn’t fit Flip’s new offensive philosophy and didn’t want to be part of the problem. Apparently–you don’t remember that either.

    Regarding the Denver deal: Denver inquired about Chauncey and offered AI. Joe said get real and asked for Melo. Denver began internal discussion–serious enough that Melo contacted Nuggets management and told them he would not go to Detroit. So yes, Denver seriously considered the deal because they had scoring with AI an Kenyon Martin but badly needed a true point guard to run the offense. Ultimately Joe ended up making the very deal he spit on.

    Regarding free agent/Cap space: Do you mean the $ 40 million in cap space freed up by AI’s, Sheed’s and Antonio McDyess’s expiring contract’s replaced by Gordon and Villanuevas’ 17 million (that’s a net of 23 million;)) that Joe made mention of constantly? 

    Regarding trade assets: Tayshuan and Rip, the Pistons top two assets have gone nowhere–while their numbers have declined each season. GM’s around the league would seem to disagree with your assessment of the Piston’s other assets value, other than Chicago’s brief consideration of Will Bynum. So apparently Patty, only you would make such deals for those assets.
    Regarding younger player/veteran fraternization/stupidity: Rip Tayshaun an Ben are professionals. They are not of the character to be disruptive–intentionally or overtly. However when it has been two years since you were supposed to have been gone, it wears and creates questions about where the organization is going for younger players. The only players that I have seen play in an inspired fashion have been Bynum and Jerebko–you have only to look at the team record (and watch a few games) to know that. I would prefer that Pistons would not be stuck with Rip and Tayshaun not playing to their capabilities when healthy–the younger players are watching. I would prefer that Joe learn from his mistake of letting his emotion tip his hand and making himself look silly in the end–kind of like using words such as, “weird,” and ,”stupid,” in an attempt to make uninformed arguments against viewpoints on events with which you are obviously unaware.

  • Oct 7, 20107:28 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    @lee: thanks for the comment. i put a lot of thought into things i post, and i try to explain myself as well as i can. sometimes i think people like to argue with me because i’m an easy target, but o well. i try to make my points clear, and i try to be respectful. but not everyone wants to be that way.
     
    @hayes: buddy, there are no important pistons right now. because the team is in such a state of disrepair. if i had ZERO hope for the future i wouldn’t waste my time discussing the team with people who have no interest in a *slightly* controversial stance. god knows it would be pretty boring around here if we all agreed on everything. that said, there are important pistons for the future.
     
    speaking of important pistons, it’s like this: nobody’s really important because we have thirty guys who all play the same position. cut out a bunch of them, and VOILA! you have important pistons. rip isn’t “important” because we have ben gordon. charlie isn’t “important” because we have a bunch of other mediocre PFs. stuckey and t-mac are “unimportant” in a different way, but importance is a relative concept. and what does that concept even mean when it comes to a team that’s this bad? i’d say big ben is the closest to an important piston for his leadership and the fact he sets a good example, but he could still have a big impact on the culture of the team if both his legs were broken. tayshaun’s important for his all-around talent, but his real value this season will come at the trade deadline. so we’re talking about a very relative concept here.
     
    i’ll freely admit my bad attitude towards the team colors a lot of what i say and how i say it. but it doesn’t change my general opinions about what’s best for its future, and for now i still care deeply about the team’s future.
     
    i don’t want to get killed for another diatribe or whatever, but you’re quoting me at least a little out of context. perhaps i could have been clearer. jonas going down means nothing to this season. a losing season becomes an even more losing season. big whoop. this is a GOOD thing for our future. imagine this squad with a kickass #1 pick! bynum, gordon, rip, monroe, daye, body, jerebko, and a shiny new rookie of the year big man or point guard… that’s a promising start if you ask me. we very well may be the worst team in the league, but it’s partially because we have too many pieces who do the same things, and there’s no way to incorporate them all. take away some of these pieces, add a piece or two in an area of need, and things can turn around rather quickly. there’s a lot of talent on this team, but talent isn’t everything. chemistry is more important, and this team has no hope of developing chemistry as long as it looks like it does now.
     
    when i say his absence means zero, it’s an overstatement (not that i’m the only one prone to exaggeration around here). but if i had to pick one piston to go down this season, he’s one i can surely live with. monroe or daye would be BRUTAL because they badly need the development they’d miss. tayshaun would be literally the worst, because then he walks for nothing (extending him and actively shopping him might be the best option at that point, but he won’t have the same value as he does in february). rip and gordon would be bad options since they missed significant chunks, and you don’t want two guys who are overpaid at the same position on your roster in the first place, so the last thing you’d want is an “injury prone” label slapped to one or both of them. bynum probably needs the chance to continue to prove himself and earn kuester’s trust, so i’d hate for him to miss much time. as cold as i am on him, stuckey would hurt a lot because he’s in a contract year and dumars still has a boner for him the size of my forearm (if stuckey went down, you can rest assured they’d extend him to a massive contract and continue to hope he breaks through while making excuses for him all the way). charlie probably needs the development, even though he’s like a 6 year veteran. he needs to get better, and we still owe him a TON to be our absolute worst player. all of these names would be devastating losses this season. again, not because of immediate impact, but because of how the future would be affected. i already said big ben would be quite a loss, but still i’d probably feel worse for him personally (as i do for jj), because he’s only got a few years left and he’s missing precious time. hard to say if i’d rather lose max or jj this season, but considering the long-term financial commitment we have to max, i’d probably be more worried about him getting an “injury prone” label. white is injured, so he’ll suffer anyways, but if i had to lose him for the season, i’d probably be worried since he needs development badly, and i’d like to see him prove he can be better than stuckey with a single season of limited minutes under his belt. that leaves wilcox, summers (who never had a chance on this team to begin with) and t-mac as guys i’d prefer to lose for the season if we had to lose someone. as far as rotation staples go, i think we lose the least in the long run by losing jj.
     
    sure my comments were curt and perhaps seemed cold, but i’m either going to explain myself completely or be limited to a few short sentences. i’ll work on an in-between game, but it’s just not how i write. if people have a problem here that’s fine, but i’m always willing to explain myself and i don’t resort to name calling.

  • Oct 7, 20107:44 pm
    by Laser

    Reply

    LOL! doctor dave just put a “SF” after gordon’s name on a depth chart. i know this team’s forced to play virtually everyone out of position, but that’s rich. sure hope it was a typo, friend.
     
    also, note that i rarely get overly argumentative or pick fights, even when called names by people who aren’t looking at the big picture.

  • Oct 7, 201010:34 pm
    by DoctorDaveT.com

    Reply

    Hey, Laser,
    the “G/SF” next to Gordon’s name was no typo, “friend.” Rather, it was an attempt to establish how the rotation will look. If the Q is playing 8, then Bynum, Gordon & Monroe are the three coming off the bench (assign them whatever position you want to assign them). If the Q is playing 9, then you add TMac to that. Also – I don’t think Detroit sells many 9-cylinder piston engines, so you can kind of see why I first went with the 8 man rotation…. Or did you miss that?
    In my thinking, there isn’t a lot of difference between the 2-3 (SG/SF) positions on the court. Gordon’s a little small for either – but that’s the position he plays. Thus: I put a “G/SF” next to his name.

  • Oct 8, 20101:26 am
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @Lee:

    I’m not gonna waste much more time with this after this post. I don’t understand how I’m arguing “both ends” of anything.

    You’re wrong on some major points.

    “Simple–Their lack of production when healthy, their dejected responses to Joe’s announcement of consequences for a team that layed down the way we did and that changes WILL be made etc. He publicly accused them of quitting and promised that heads would roll if the deals were there. Most telling, their lack-luster performance on the court when playing healthy. If that’s a mystery to you, you might try watching a game or two.”

    Hamilton hasn’t been healthy really for the last two seasons, so that along with age explains a slight dropoff in production for him. But his only stat that was off his career average was his shooting percentage last year. His scoring, assists, etc. were all at about his career averages the last two seasons (scoring average was actually slightly higher than his career average both those seasons).

    Prince two years ago played in every game, had the second best scoring average of his career and averaged a career high in rebounds.

    Last season, he was injured the first half of the season, had some rust when he initially came back, and then closed the season by average 18 points/6 rebounds/4 assists and shooting over 50 percent from the field in the last 25 or so games when he finally got fully healthy and back in game shape.

    The stats just don’t back up this decline in production you are trumpeting. Neither guy is a franchise player by any stretch, but they are both reliable and consistent.

    As far as “watching a game or two,” I’m not one of those douches who is going to brag about watching the team a lot. But suffice it to say, I take writing seriously and I wouldn’t co-write a blog about the Pistons if I didn’t spend an inordinate amount of time watching the team.

    “Not a weird comment at all–I agree with certain points that you both made but ultimately agreed with Lasers conclusion. Weird would be your supercilious tendency to argue both ends of a comment or question–reflection of a person who is desperate to be right all of the time.”
    Haha. Supercilious. What a stupid word. “Look at me! I have ‘Word of the Day’ toilet paper!”
    “The conversation about switching philosophies: When Davidson became fed up with Larry Brown and decided to look for another coach. The press coverage was quite heavy at the time regarding Rip and Chauncey’s lobbying for a more offensive minded coach resulting in the hiring of Flip Saunders. Not sure where you were at the time–possibly taking a couple of days to build your positions for each side of some argument.”
    Yeah, Saunders was more offensive minded than the least offensive minded coach in the NBA in Brown, I’ll give you that. But you act as if the dude didn’t coach defense. His teams in Minnesota built around KG were very good defensively and his teams in Detroit were very good defensively. They were also a much more efficient offensive team under Saunders than Brown. His failures as a coach came in the playoffs when the team tuned him out at the first sign of adversity and he appeared ill-equipped to make the adjustments necessary to win in a playoff series.
    “Regarding their top five defensive prowess under Flip: Ben Wallace would heartily disagree with you just as he did openly(in the press and on the court) with his teammates abandoning help defense. The money that Chicago offered him was NOT the only reason he left Detroit. He simply didn’t fit Flip’s new offensive philosophy and didn’t want to be part of the problem. Apparently–you don’t remember that either.”
    Did I say they were as good defensively with Wallace gone under Saunders? I said that they were still one of the top five defensive teams in the league under Saunders. They absolutely were. You are acting as if they became some kind of Golden State Warriors high scoring act under Saunders. Wallace certainly didn’t like the direction of the team under Saunders, but apparently YOU don’t remember that one of the things Wallace was pissed about was offense, not defense. Under Brown, LB always ran post-up plays for Wallace early in games to make him feel like he was a part of the offense, even if Ben was the worst offensive option on the floor for those teams. Saunders’ offense relied much more on precision and flowed much better going through the other four starters and ignoring Wallace except on dump-offs and lobs around the basket. Flip didn’t throw Wallace those same bones by running plays for him in the halfcourt sets and it irritated him. Yeah, he complained that Saunders didn’t preach the same toughness as LB, but he left town making a lot of complaints.
    “Regarding the Denver deal: Denver inquired about Chauncey and offered AI. Joe said get real and asked for Melo. Denver began internal discussion–serious enough that Melo contacted Nuggets management and told them he would not go to Detroit. So yes, Denver seriously considered the deal because they had scoring with AI an Kenyon Martin but badly needed a true point guard to run the offense. Ultimately Joe ended up making the very deal he spit on.”
    You act as if you have inside info that is contrary to everything that was reported at the time. If you do, that’s fine. I would think you’d be using that in a larger capacity than commenting on a Pistons blog if you did have that info, however. Every report about the trade said Detroit asked for Anthony, Denver said no, countered with Iverson. Nowhere was it reported that Denver ever considered parting with Anthony in that trade.
    And if you think Kenyon Martin is a legit scoring option, perhaps you should watch more basketball.
    “Regarding free agent/Cap space: Do you mean the $ 40 million in cap space freed up by AI’s, Sheed’s and Antonio McDyess’s expiring contract’s replaced by Gordon and Villanuevas’ 17 million (that’s a net of 23 million;)) that Joe made mention of constantly?”
    They didn’t have $40 million cap space just because they had $40 million in salary come off the books. All I can say is read up on how the cap works. There are cap holds for rookies and open roster spots that count against the final figure, players have contractual raises built into contracts and the salary cap fluctuates year-to-year. They never had $40 million in cap space to spend. They had enough to sign Gordon, Villanueva and Chris Wilcox, and that was after they purged Amir Johnson and Arron Afflalo from the roster in salary saving deals as well. You are mistaken if you think they ever had that much in cap space to spend.
    Also, your comment was in regards to free agents this season (I assume it was since you mentioned McGrady). Surely you glanced at the cap situation this season and knew that the Pistons were capped out, right? You didn’t? Just plowed right into the comment? I see.
    “Regarding trade assets: Tayshuan and Rip, the Pistons top two assets have gone nowhere–while their numbers have declined each season. GM’s around the league would seem to disagree with your assessment of the Piston’s other assets value, other than Chicago’s brief consideration of Will Bynum. So apparently Patty, only you would make such deals for those assets.”
    Patty. Haha. If you’re going to be condescending, at least make arguments that are backed up by statistics. Sorry, Lee “The Game Watcher” Scruggs’ eyeballs seeing it is not enough evidence for me to support your claims.
    As has been pointed out above, their numbers have not declined. Hamilton’s injuries have made him less valuable for sure, but his numbers (other than his shooting percentage last year) are right where they’ve always been. Same with Prince. He’s had no statistical decline.
    But Prince’s value has nothing to do with production. Dude has a large expiring contract. He could average 1 point and 15 turnovers a game, and his value would still increase up until the trade deadline this year simply because every single year in the NBA teams dump decent players and their salaries for expiring deals.
    Stuckey, Jerebko, Daye, Monroe, Summers and White are assets because they are all either solidish players or guys still young enough to have upside who are cheap. Teams always trade for guys like that. They are assets in that sense — if a team approached the Pistons with a trade, they have enough pieces between the contracts of Prince and Wilcox that expire and young cheap guys to throw in that would make a deal work.
    “I would prefer that Joe learn from his mistake of letting his emotion tip his hand and making himself look silly in the end–kind of like using words such as, “weird,” and ,”stupid,” in an attempt to make uninformed arguments against viewpoints on events with which you are obviously unaware.”
    You have exhibited that you clearly don’t understand the salary cap and that you clearly don’t know how to look up statistics, and you are accusing me of being unaware?
    I think it is “weird” when you essentially read one post here and accuse me of making disingenuous arguments or “playing both sides,” whatever the effe that means. And yeah, whoever Adam is, I think his position that Villanueva and Maxiell are much better than Jerebko is patently stupid. Stupid might be too kind of a word. Doesn’t make him a bad person or anything, but this is a basketball site. If the uninformed want to play at the big boy table, they’re gonna get called out when they say stupid stuff.
    As far as your basketball arguments, I think they’re wrong and I think they’re half-assed, but those things don’t really offend me. There’s plenty of room for discussion about who’s right/wrong/half-assed. But I’ll be damned if I’m gonna let a commenter accuse me of making dishonest arguments, of not watching games or of “playing both sides.”
    You were a beast on the Asheville Altitude though.

     
     

  • Oct 8, 20101:32 am
    by Patrick Hayes

    Reply

    @laser:
    Perhaps you can explain the salary cap to your new BFF Lee?
    And quit with the “whoa is me … sometimes i think people like to argue with me because i’m an easy target, but o well.” People like to argue with you because you choose to find the negative in everything. I mean, I don’t think this team is good. I still like to watch them though. I still like to write about them and I still like to think of ways they could possibly get incrementally better both now and in the future. There’s nothing wrong with that. To me, it’s more enjoyable than saying “everything sucks, I hope they suck enough to get the No. 1 pick next year.”
    I’m not gonna apologize about “taking things out of context” either. You want me to stop taking things out of context? Then stop providing so much damned context. I’m certainly not going to excerpt and respond to an entire huge post. I’m going to pick out the points that resonate/that I agree with/that piss me off and respond. That’s how it works. You took snippets of my Stuckey post/comments and did the same thing.

  • Oct 8, 20102:37 am
    by Laser

    Reply

    patrick, don’t tell me people argue with me because i’m always negative in a thread where i’ve been nothing but positive. and i’m only saying this because you’ve messed this up twice, but the expression is “woe is me.” speaking of which, who between the two of us is woe-is-mee’ing about jonas?? what a frustrating exchange this has become.
     
    if you think they’re no good, what’s a better way to improve than a good draft pick? god knows joe isn’t going to do a thing to fix this. great job he’s been doing so far, yeah? he’s positively handcuffed the team with these bad contracts.
     
    the place where we REALLY differ, i suppose, is that i no longer like to watch them. i have tickets to tomorrow’s game against the bucks that are almost certain to go to waste. at least if things go as predicted it’ll be easier to just change the channel than try to beat the rush out of the palace at halftime. when this was a playoff hopeful in 08-09 i was NOT in favor of tanking the season. as a borderline team i’d rather get swept out of the first round than get the longest of long shot chance at a top three pick. but when it’s plainly obvious that the team (A) will not make the playoffs, and (B) can not have any measure of success looking anything like it does now, i’d rather win zero games than twenty-two. and i don’t see the benefit of the alternative. if you have a guess as to how this team improves outside of the draft i’d love to hear it.
     
    how did you feel about the last six games of last season? were you excited to see the pistons take four of the and go out on a high note?
     
    personally, i thought it was a lose-lose. if this was a young team with potential that just needed to get some experience and confidence and learn how to play together to really be competitive, those victories would have been a good thing. but that team (which is basically the one we have now) can not succeed as constructed, so developing chemistry is a waste of time and a borderline-futile uphill battle. the pistons won’t be successful without a point guard, significant subtractions from their perimeter and significant additions to their front line. when (if?) that happens, the team i going to play drastically different, players will have defined roles, etc. this stopgap we’re working with now is a waste of time aside from the individual development of certain young players.
     
    and before you try to chase me off these boards consider that you’re talking to someone who explains himself, presents coherent thoughts in full sentences, and makes way more sense than not. plus what you just said to me about the length of my posts and how you won’t pick through them is absurd after the post you just slapped directly above it. and of all things, it was in response to an at-best vaguely coherent post from my new bff.
     
    you don’t have to apologize for anything. and if you don’t want to read my posts just don’t. i don’t care. it’s fine. there are other people here who are interested. and i didn’t take anything you said about stuckey out of context. i fully understood and fully disagreed with everything you said about him.

  • Oct 8, 20102:53 am
    by nuetes

    Reply

    Whoa Patrick came back spitting flames. I like it. I agree though that there are a few too many knowledgeable basketball fans around here for someone to get away with asinine statement like Jerebko is worthless and not get called out. The exchange between Lee Scruggs and Patrick really brought back some memories I’ve erased. Like the Ben Wallace/Saunders feud. And the fact Saunders was a complete failure at making adjustments during the playoffs. Man I forget those days. Saunders was a terrible crunch time coach. Allowing Lebron to go off for like 30 straight points was the last straw. How do you not double team him up the court and get the ball out of his hands? It’s too bad Davidson got fed up with Larry Brown’s act. The team still had another run or two in it, but Saunders was garbage.
     
    On a complete side note now that I’ve had more time to reflect on the offseason and coming season – Why is Tracy Mcgrady a Piston? I defended the move at the time but time has also made me realize what an absurd signing that was/is. Seriously why is Mcgrady a Piston right now? I say they cut him. Cut him now. What is he doing in a Piston uniform? Daye is ready as far as I’m concerned. If not at SF then at PF. Get him on the court. What purpose is Mcgrady serving? I just can’t figure it out. There is no reason I can come up with for Mcgrady. It seemed like a low risk/high reward move, but I can’t seem to find the reward. What is the reward again? He’s not good anymore, and he’s wasting my time, and Daye’s time, and, he’s just wasting everyone’s time including his own. Cut him.
     
    Another thing since I’m making this an all-encompassing post. This need for a playmaking PG I have issues with. Stuckey could work. It’s not his fault he’s not a PG it seems he’s taking a beating for not being what he’s forced into supposed to being. I’m certainly not a Stuckey slappy but the guy is constantly getting murdered by fans for not being a playmaker. He just is what he is. The cry for a true PG could ring just as true for any other position on the roster, but Stuckey takes the brunt of it. The Pistons need a playmaker yes, but that playmaker doesn’t necessarily have to come from the PG position. There are plenty of things I like about Stuckey, although none of them occur with the ball in his hands. I think Stuckey is a very good off the ball player. He cuts through the lane for easy buckets. He hits his spot up shots well. He moves well without the ball. And when he catches and then has the drive/shoot option he makes better decisions. It’s when he has the ball and he’s dribbling and trying to make decisions that he fails. That’s probably a Stuckey is a SG argument, but that’s not necessarily the case. The case could be made that if the Pistons had a playmaker at SG or SF then Stuckey could excel being a PG with limited ball handling duties. PG is just a position it’s not necessarily a defined role. I’d take a playmaker at any of the spots it doesn’t matter which one. It’s not easy to come by those kind of players, but if you limit yourself to only looking for playmakers at the PG position that eliminates a lot more of the limited possibilities in filling that hole.
     
    Last but not least. CV blows. I really don’t like this Pistons team. When guys come around and say they aren’t going to watch I kinda get it. This team is played out and not very enjoyable to watch. I’d prefer watching Daye and Monroe get 40 minutes per night and have the team struggle for 20 wins over watching CV, Gordon, and Rip struggle to win 30 games. If the season is essentially wasted before it begins why not use that wasted season to develop some talent? Or at least prove to the fans that the talent isn’t worth developing. I want more Daye. All-Daye. The more I watch the more I think there is something there. Which brings me back to Mcgrady. Why is he on the team again?

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