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	<title>Comments on: Sorting the Detroit Pistons by how much they each play with Ben Wallace could be the key to building their best lineup</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/</link>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/comment-page-1/#comment-2859</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:45:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/#comment-2859</guid>
		<description>Very interesting conclusion.  I think with such a melting pot affect with this team and inability to stay healthy it is hard to gauge this teams true potential.  I have to agree with some of the posts here that at some point there has to be more playing time for the &quot;youth&quot; of this team.  It is kinda funny how at draft time the pro&#039;s were saying that summers was the most &#039;NBA&#039; ready player of the teams picks.  What happened?  Being a die hard Pistons fan it is tough to see that they will be lottery bound unless they get their act together.  And if you look at most of Prince&#039;s stat lines he has been pretty useless this season in his few games that he has played.  I say trade him even though his value against salary is low.  Too many players at shooting guard and small forward, not enough true points or bigs.  I am not envious of Kuesters job this year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting conclusion.  I think with such a melting pot affect with this team and inability to stay healthy it is hard to gauge this teams true potential.  I have to agree with some of the posts here that at some point there has to be more playing time for the &#8220;youth&#8221; of this team.  It is kinda funny how at draft time the pro&#8217;s were saying that summers was the most &#8216;NBA&#8217; ready player of the teams picks.  What happened?  Being a die hard Pistons fan it is tough to see that they will be lottery bound unless they get their act together.  And if you look at most of Prince&#8217;s stat lines he has been pretty useless this season in his few games that he has played.  I say trade him even though his value against salary is low.  Too many players at shooting guard and small forward, not enough true points or bigs.  I am not envious of Kuesters job this year.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Feldman</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/comment-page-1/#comment-2858</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Feldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/#comment-2858</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks, Gabe. Daye has looked pretty good playing with some unfavorable lineups. I&#039;d like to see what he can do with the big guns. At this point, if he fails, so what? At least find out what you have.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Gabe. Daye has looked pretty good playing with some unfavorable lineups. I&#8217;d like to see what he can do with the big guns. At this point, if he fails, so what? At least find out what you have.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Feldman</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/comment-page-1/#comment-2857</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Feldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/#comment-2857</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Koz, there have been too many injuries to stick with a core. And if the Pistons are rebuilding, wouldn&#039;t it make more sense to tinker with different lineups and figure out which combinations work best?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Koz, there have been too many injuries to stick with a core. And if the Pistons are rebuilding, wouldn&#8217;t it make more sense to tinker with different lineups and figure out which combinations work best?</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Feldman</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/comment-page-1/#comment-2856</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Feldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/#comment-2856</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Joe, it&#039;s similar. But with all the injuries, I think the picture of  how valuable other players besides Wallace are is muddled. By isolating players&#039; time with Wallace, there&#039;s not the noise of other players -- which affects adjusted plus-minus.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;At least, I think. I admit, I don&#039;t totally understand how adjusted plus-minus is calculated. I get the point of it, but the formula is a little tougher to get a grasp of.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, it&#8217;s similar. But with all the injuries, I think the picture of  how valuable other players besides Wallace are is muddled. By isolating players&#8217; time with Wallace, there&#8217;s not the noise of other players &#8212; which affects adjusted plus-minus.</p>
<p>At least, I think. I admit, I don&#8217;t totally understand how adjusted plus-minus is calculated. I get the point of it, but the formula is a little tougher to get a grasp of.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Feldman</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/comment-page-1/#comment-2855</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Feldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/#comment-2855</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Stat police, thanks for the response. A lot of great stuff in there. A few rebuttals:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
&lt;ul&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Proving causation is nearly impossible in these arguments, yes. But my intent wasn&#039;t to provide a scientifically verifiable conclusion. I wanted to raise the question of which Pistons should have a chance at playing more with Ben Wallace (and at whose expense).&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Other teams&#039; worst players are playing during garbage time, too. I think that who &quot;wins&quot; garbage time tends to even out. In the long run, the Pistons&#039; bench warmers&#039; plus-minuses aren&#039;t hampered by playing in garbage time.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;My intent wasn&#039;t to analyze how playing with Ben Wallace would help the the numbers of players. I&#039;m looking at how playing with Ben Wallace would improve a player&#039;s ability to help the Pistons. If Wallace and Kwame Brown go up for a rebound, and Ben Wallace gets it, that hurts Brown&#039;s stats. But it doesn&#039;t affect the Pistons.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;I definitely see the logic of pairing Wallace with a shooting big like Villanueva or Maxiell. The Pistons have played decently when one of those two joins Wallace. But they&#039;ve played decently with Wallace and Brown, too. Maybe they should give that combo more of a chance  -- at least just to see how it works. The numbers suggest it might work better than what Detroit has been doing.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;I&#039;m not sure whether Brown would maintain his production. But if the goal right now is to evaluate individual players, I&#039;d give him more minutes with Wallace to see how he responds. If you don&#039;t, you&#039;re comparing apples to oranges.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;If you were to remove any point it would be Brown, who has played, by far, the fewest minutes with Wallace. If you did that, the correlation would be much stronger.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;I chose to use this single variable, because I think it&#039;s very significant. Watching games, it&#039;s clear Ben Wallace is the Pistons&#039; best player. After him, the order is muddled. It&#039;s hard to compare players whose playing time with Wallace vary so much. The attempt was to find which players &lt;em&gt;might &lt;/em&gt;deserve more of it.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;/ul&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stat police, thanks for the response. A lot of great stuff in there. A few rebuttals:</p>
<ul>
<li>Proving causation is nearly impossible in these arguments, yes. But my intent wasn&#8217;t to provide a scientifically verifiable conclusion. I wanted to raise the question of which Pistons should have a chance at playing more with Ben Wallace (and at whose expense).</li>
<li>Other teams&#8217; worst players are playing during garbage time, too. I think that who &#8220;wins&#8221; garbage time tends to even out. In the long run, the Pistons&#8217; bench warmers&#8217; plus-minuses aren&#8217;t hampered by playing in garbage time.</li>
<li>My intent wasn&#8217;t to analyze how playing with Ben Wallace would help the the numbers of players. I&#8217;m looking at how playing with Ben Wallace would improve a player&#8217;s ability to help the Pistons. If Wallace and Kwame Brown go up for a rebound, and Ben Wallace gets it, that hurts Brown&#8217;s stats. But it doesn&#8217;t affect the Pistons.</li>
<li>I definitely see the logic of pairing Wallace with a shooting big like Villanueva or Maxiell. The Pistons have played decently when one of those two joins Wallace. But they&#8217;ve played decently with Wallace and Brown, too. Maybe they should give that combo more of a chance  &#8211; at least just to see how it works. The numbers suggest it might work better than what Detroit has been doing.</li>
<li>I&#8217;m not sure whether Brown would maintain his production. But if the goal right now is to evaluate individual players, I&#8217;d give him more minutes with Wallace to see how he responds. If you don&#8217;t, you&#8217;re comparing apples to oranges.</li>
<li>If you were to remove any point it would be Brown, who has played, by far, the fewest minutes with Wallace. If you did that, the correlation would be much stronger.</li>
<li>I chose to use this single variable, because I think it&#8217;s very significant. Watching games, it&#8217;s clear Ben Wallace is the Pistons&#8217; best player. After him, the order is muddled. It&#8217;s hard to compare players whose playing time with Wallace vary so much. The attempt was to find which players <em>might </em>deserve more of it.</li>
</ul>
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		<title>By: Dan Feldman</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/comment-page-1/#comment-2854</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Feldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:10:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/#comment-2854</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Pratik, I&#039;m actually looking into a trade for Amar&#039;e Stoudemire for a future Friday Trade Idea. I think it would cost Jerebko and/or Daye, though.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pratik, I&#8217;m actually looking into a trade for Amar&#8217;e Stoudemire for a future Friday Trade Idea. I think it would cost Jerebko and/or Daye, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Gabe</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/comment-page-1/#comment-2842</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 05:11:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/#comment-2842</guid>
		<description>Awesome post! Very interesting idea, and I generally agree with premise and definitely agree with the conclusions.
It really makes no sense to be giving Wilcox minutes, he&#039;s been unbelievably terrible. I&#039;ve been happy with Jerebko&#039;s performance so far this season, but I wouldn&#039;t be opposed to Daye getting more minutes even if some of them keep at Jerebko&#039;s expense. Daye has played well considering his youth, inexperience and slight frame, and getting him more time on the court with Ben Wallace could be good for his development.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome post! Very interesting idea, and I generally agree with premise and definitely agree with the conclusions.<br />
It really makes no sense to be giving Wilcox minutes, he&#8217;s been unbelievably terrible. I&#8217;ve been happy with Jerebko&#8217;s performance so far this season, but I wouldn&#8217;t be opposed to Daye getting more minutes even if some of them keep at Jerebko&#8217;s expense. Daye has played well considering his youth, inexperience and slight frame, and getting him more time on the court with Ben Wallace could be good for his development.</p>
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		<title>By: koz</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/comment-page-1/#comment-2840</link>
		<dc:creator>koz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 23:55:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/#comment-2840</guid>
		<description>why not start wallace, villanueva, prince, stucky and hamilton, your best offensive punch and start competing from the outset of games instead of getting down early all of the time. Then sub in gordon or bynum or atkins along with daye and jerebko wilcox as needed. pick a solid core, stick with it and develop some leadership as a coach and an organization that both fans and players can respect and rely on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>why not start wallace, villanueva, prince, stucky and hamilton, your best offensive punch and start competing from the outset of games instead of getting down early all of the time. Then sub in gordon or bynum or atkins along with daye and jerebko wilcox as needed. pick a solid core, stick with it and develop some leadership as a coach and an organization that both fans and players can respect and rely on.</p>
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		<title>By: joe</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/comment-page-1/#comment-2838</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:58:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/#comment-2838</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t this what the adjusted plus/minus stats are supposed to sort out?
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&amp;team=DET
The one year column is a better representation of the overall value of each player. Wilcox, Summers &amp; Prince haven&#039;t played enough minutes to have accurate calcs.
 
 
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t this what the adjusted plus/minus stats are supposed to sort out?<br />
<a href="http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&#038;team=DET" rel="nofollow">http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&#038;team=DET</a><br />
The one year column is a better representation of the overall value of each player. Wilcox, Summers &amp; Prince haven&#8217;t played enough minutes to have accurate calcs.<br />
 <br />
 <br />
 </p>
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		<title>By: Stat_Police</title>
		<link>http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/comment-page-1/#comment-2836</link>
		<dc:creator>Stat_Police</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/01/sorting-the-detroit-pistons-by-how-much-they-each-play-with-ben-wallace-could-be-the-key-to-building-their-best-lineup/#comment-2836</guid>
		<description>This is a classic case of correlation vs. causation confusion - I feel obliged to make a point or two:

Demonstrating that players who play a higher % of minutes with Ben Wallace tend to have higher per 48 +/- stats is neat, but does nothing to establish causation.  In fact, here&#039;s a simple alternate theory: as an aging veteran who is, as you say, unquestionably his team&#039;s best player, there is only one category of game time we expect Ben Wallace to miss consistently: garbage time.  Of course, the players who play in garbage time are not selected randomly - they are generally weaker players.

This also completely disregards any possibility of players being complementary: Ben Wallace may enable some players more than others.  Hint: the big men can be disregarded or, at minimum, must be analyzed separately from the guards.  Obviously the impact of one big on another is very different.  In the specific case of Ben Wallace, one might expect him to hurt the numbers of other bigs due to his strong rebounding and post presence.  Since his outside shot is limited, it makes perfect sense that he doesn&#039;t share much court time with Wilcox OR Kwame.  Shooting &quot;bigs&quot; (Villanueva, Maxiell to a much lesser degree) likely thrive more and are clearly playing with him more...  Does this mean they are &quot;over-rated&quot;?

Brown is outperforming the &quot;Ben Wallace line&quot; significantly, but do you truly believe he&#039;d move up the more he shares time with BW?  Seems unlikely...  It&#039;s debatable whether he would even maintain production.

Finally, if you take out two points (Summers and Wilcox), the entire correlation looks much weaker.

Please, if you would like to leverage numbers to enhance your understanding of the game, do so in a comprehensive way.  Viewing player performance along a single variable (in this case % of time with Ben Wallace on court) is so statistically flawed that any conclusions drawn are probably less likely than random hypotheses to be correct (example being Kwame Brown&#039;s insane overperformance relative to everyone).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a classic case of correlation vs. causation confusion &#8211; I feel obliged to make a point or two:</p>
<p>Demonstrating that players who play a higher % of minutes with Ben Wallace tend to have higher per 48 +/- stats is neat, but does nothing to establish causation.  In fact, here&#8217;s a simple alternate theory: as an aging veteran who is, as you say, unquestionably his team&#8217;s best player, there is only one category of game time we expect Ben Wallace to miss consistently: garbage time.  Of course, the players who play in garbage time are not selected randomly &#8211; they are generally weaker players.</p>
<p>This also completely disregards any possibility of players being complementary: Ben Wallace may enable some players more than others.  Hint: the big men can be disregarded or, at minimum, must be analyzed separately from the guards.  Obviously the impact of one big on another is very different.  In the specific case of Ben Wallace, one might expect him to hurt the numbers of other bigs due to his strong rebounding and post presence.  Since his outside shot is limited, it makes perfect sense that he doesn&#8217;t share much court time with Wilcox OR Kwame.  Shooting &#8220;bigs&#8221; (Villanueva, Maxiell to a much lesser degree) likely thrive more and are clearly playing with him more&#8230;  Does this mean they are &#8220;over-rated&#8221;?</p>
<p>Brown is outperforming the &#8220;Ben Wallace line&#8221; significantly, but do you truly believe he&#8217;d move up the more he shares time with BW?  Seems unlikely&#8230;  It&#8217;s debatable whether he would even maintain production.</p>
<p>Finally, if you take out two points (Summers and Wilcox), the entire correlation looks much weaker.</p>
<p>Please, if you would like to leverage numbers to enhance your understanding of the game, do so in a comprehensive way.  Viewing player performance along a single variable (in this case % of time with Ben Wallace on court) is so statistically flawed that any conclusions drawn are probably less likely than random hypotheses to be correct (example being Kwame Brown&#8217;s insane overperformance relative to everyone).</p>
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